1
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:23,269
so

2
00:00:28,070 --> 00:00:25,670
welcome back to liminal frames i'm your

3
00:00:31,109 --> 00:00:28,080
host nathan and i'm here with my co-host

4
00:00:34,389 --> 00:00:31,119
exo academian uh you're listening to

5
00:00:37,830 --> 00:00:34,399
episode five of the show

6
00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:37,840
exo do you think we'd make it this far

7
00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:40,559
i did absolutely i the reason why i put

8
00:00:45,430 --> 00:00:43,360
like three digits zero zero five because

9
00:00:46,709 --> 00:00:45,440
i pictured us getting to episode 100 one

10
00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:46,719
day and that way wouldn't have to change

11
00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:49,120
the number of digits in the titles

12
00:00:54,069 --> 00:00:51,520
but uh yeah happy to get back into it

13
00:00:57,029 --> 00:00:54,079
and we've got another uh loaded and fun

14
00:01:00,069 --> 00:00:57,039
topic to uh to unpack today

15
00:01:02,069 --> 00:01:00,079
we do yeah this topic uh so fun in fact

16
00:01:03,590 --> 00:01:02,079
that we uh have trouble even

17
00:01:06,710 --> 00:01:03,600
categorizing it but i think we're going

18
00:01:08,950 --> 00:01:06,720
to give it our best shot uh we've talked

19
00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:08,960
a lot about on the show

20
00:01:13,429 --> 00:01:10,799
even the name of the show itself liminal

21
00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:13,439
frames one of the goals of our show is

22
00:01:17,830 --> 00:01:15,680
to take topics within

23
00:01:20,469 --> 00:01:17,840
the phenomenon the ufology the

24
00:01:23,109 --> 00:01:20,479
paranormal and

25
00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:23,119
kind of walk through ways of examining

26
00:01:27,749 --> 00:01:24,880
those topics

27
00:01:30,069 --> 00:01:27,759
from from different vantage points

28
00:01:32,310 --> 00:01:30,079
and i think that's incredibly useful

29
00:01:34,149 --> 00:01:32,320
uh just as a general tool

30
00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:34,159
not just for this subject but for

31
00:01:38,069 --> 00:01:35,920
anything but it's also something that i

32
00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:38,079
think our listeners and and ourselves

33
00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:39,680
personally can

34
00:01:46,149 --> 00:01:42,640
directly relate to we all bring

35
00:01:48,469 --> 00:01:46,159
with us to experience our own

36
00:01:49,749 --> 00:01:48,479
perspectives our own frameworks of

37
00:01:51,510 --> 00:01:49,759
understanding

38
00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:51,520
and when it comes to the phenomenon

39
00:01:55,749 --> 00:01:52,560
that's

40
00:01:58,950 --> 00:01:55,759
no different at all and so what we want

41
00:02:01,990 --> 00:01:58,960
to do in this episode is kind of look at

42
00:02:04,230 --> 00:02:02,000
and i think even validate the the

43
00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:04,240
different ways of approaching

44
00:02:09,589 --> 00:02:07,040
uh and different ways of framing uh our

45
00:02:12,229 --> 00:02:09,599
experience of the phenomenon and our

46
00:02:14,229 --> 00:02:12,239
experience of really life itself

47
00:02:16,869 --> 00:02:14,239
uh and so i know that's pretty pretty

48
00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:16,879
broad and vague but uh hopefully it'll

49
00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:19,840
become clear as we walk through it

50
00:02:24,309 --> 00:02:23,280
exo when you think about uh you know

51
00:02:25,990 --> 00:02:24,319
kind of

52
00:02:27,510 --> 00:02:26,000
stories of the phenomenon or high

53
00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:27,520
strangeness

54
00:02:30,630 --> 00:02:29,120
uh you know

55
00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:30,640
what are some of the

56
00:02:34,390 --> 00:02:32,640
on-ramps for you

57
00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:34,400
into approaching

58
00:02:38,869 --> 00:02:37,120
those stories if you were to break

59
00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:38,879
down into kind of different kind of

60
00:02:44,710 --> 00:02:42,160
categorical uh uh models you know how

61
00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:44,720
would how do you

62
00:02:47,430 --> 00:02:45,760
you know

63
00:02:49,670 --> 00:02:47,440
turn your attention and kind of walk

64
00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:49,680
through and work with the things that

65
00:02:55,030 --> 00:02:52,000
you experience in those stories and in

66
00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:55,040
the data that you that you see

67
00:02:58,710 --> 00:02:56,640
yeah it's a good question and i think

68
00:03:00,790 --> 00:02:58,720
that what we're trying to point out

69
00:03:03,190 --> 00:03:00,800
tonight is that

70
00:03:05,110 --> 00:03:03,200
we have these pre-existing frames we all

71
00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:05,120
do whether we're conscious of them or

72
00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:05,920
not

73
00:03:11,350 --> 00:03:08,400
um and uh

74
00:03:13,509 --> 00:03:11,360
that has as much an impact on

75
00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:13,519
our take away regarding when we look at

76
00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:16,560
data to do to do with a phenomenon as it

77
00:03:20,149 --> 00:03:18,720
does with the the actual data itself in

78
00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:20,159
other words

79
00:03:24,309 --> 00:03:21,920
interpretation is always part of the

80
00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:24,319
exercise um

81
00:03:27,589 --> 00:03:25,760
and

82
00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:27,599
it's interesting because for instance on

83
00:03:30,949 --> 00:03:29,440
a platform like ufo twitter where we're

84
00:03:32,949 --> 00:03:30,959
both pretty active

85
00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:32,959
you know you see different groups uh

86
00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:35,280
there that are pretty distinct

87
00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:37,840
and someone might come away

88
00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:39,280
without realizing the sort of framing

89
00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:41,200
piece and go this is so strange like how

90
00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:42,560
can there be these

91
00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:44,560
polar opposite different perspectives

92
00:03:48,149 --> 00:03:46,400
here

93
00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:48,159
and of course it comes down to number

94
00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:49,280
one

95
00:03:54,229 --> 00:03:52,720
this data is hard to digest and parse

96
00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:54,239
anyway because you've got high

97
00:03:58,149 --> 00:03:55,840
strangeness you've got

98
00:04:03,110 --> 00:03:58,159
you know

99
00:04:05,910 --> 00:04:03,120
as as john alexander coined it so you

100
00:04:07,589 --> 00:04:05,920
you've got um

101
00:04:09,670 --> 00:04:07,599
your cause and effect and all that kind

102
00:04:11,830 --> 00:04:09,680
of stuff is thrown out and you're even

103
00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:11,840
your expectation of what can happen in

104
00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:13,760
reality is thrown out

105
00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:15,920
so already the data itself is really

106
00:04:20,150 --> 00:04:17,680
tricky to sort of tease apart and you

107
00:04:22,469 --> 00:04:20,160
can't put it through your usual

108
00:04:24,469 --> 00:04:22,479
kind of cycles and you can't recreate it

109
00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:24,479
in a lab very easily

110
00:04:32,150 --> 00:04:26,000
so

111
00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:32,160
people's presuppositions really

112
00:04:35,510 --> 00:04:34,080
weigh heavily on what they come away

113
00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:35,520
with here because some people will look

114
00:04:39,350 --> 00:04:36,560
at one

115
00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:39,360
part of the data and say there's just no

116
00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:42,400
way that can happen like a priori so

117
00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:44,800
therefore it didn't happen right someone

118
00:04:49,110 --> 00:04:46,240
else might say

119
00:04:50,790 --> 00:04:49,120
uh i'm i'm skeptical you know i want to

120
00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:50,800
see evidence before i'll say something

121
00:04:54,790 --> 00:04:52,800
happen but i'm also not going to deny it

122
00:04:56,710 --> 00:04:54,800
that it's possible right

123
00:04:59,510 --> 00:04:56,720
and then you get someone who's actually

124
00:05:00,950 --> 00:04:59,520
personally experienced it that says

125
00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:00,960
there's no question here there's no

126
00:05:04,870 --> 00:05:03,039
debate i went through this i don't need

127
00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:04,880
you to tell me it's real i experienced

128
00:05:10,629 --> 00:05:08,240
it so you've got this range and it is

129
00:05:12,870 --> 00:05:10,639
such an interesting topic because again

130
00:05:14,550 --> 00:05:12,880
the presuppositional you know framework

131
00:05:17,110 --> 00:05:14,560
we bring to it

132
00:05:19,029 --> 00:05:17,120
has as much a role as anything in what

133
00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:19,039
we take away and probably with this

134
00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:22,240
topic more than any other

135
00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:23,360
completely

136
00:05:27,670 --> 00:05:25,600
uh i think we're gonna you know sort of

137
00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:27,680
tonight we're gonna champion uh all of

138
00:05:32,390 --> 00:05:29,840
those perspectives you know so you know

139
00:05:35,350 --> 00:05:32,400
when you talked about ufo twitter

140
00:05:36,469 --> 00:05:35,360
uh it came to my mind you know it's it

141
00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:36,479
is not

142
00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:38,880
it feels like not a week goes by or

143
00:05:42,469 --> 00:05:41,520
there's not some sort of uh in a kind of

144
00:05:44,629 --> 00:05:42,479
beef

145
00:05:45,990 --> 00:05:44,639
that that someone is having with another

146
00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:46,000
person and

147
00:05:49,590 --> 00:05:47,680
and it's i think it's helpful to

148
00:05:52,230 --> 00:05:49,600
remember that it's not

149
00:05:54,550 --> 00:05:52,240
necessarily personality driven it is the

150
00:05:57,990 --> 00:05:54,560
it is kind of based on these

151
00:06:01,909 --> 00:05:58,000
uh frameworks of of understanding uh

152
00:06:03,430 --> 00:06:01,919
that that that just as you articulated

153
00:06:06,309 --> 00:06:03,440
you know

154
00:06:07,909 --> 00:06:06,319
most folks kind of plant themselves in a

155
00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:07,919
particular

156
00:06:12,870 --> 00:06:10,080
spot when they're approaching everything

157
00:06:14,950 --> 00:06:12,880
that kind of comes to them and they're

158
00:06:18,390 --> 00:06:14,960
you know and we are going to be

159
00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:18,400
just defenders of those positions

160
00:06:23,830 --> 00:06:21,360
we have built up these walls that we you

161
00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:23,840
know we have fortified and they help us

162
00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:26,560
navigate our day-to-day life and help us

163
00:06:30,550 --> 00:06:28,000
make sense of

164
00:06:33,430 --> 00:06:30,560
the experiences that we have had in our

165
00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:33,440
lives both the mundane experiences and

166
00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:36,160
the phenomenal so this is uh something

167
00:06:41,830 --> 00:06:39,680
that we live out uh every single day

168
00:06:44,550 --> 00:06:41,840
and then we take that with us into these

169
00:06:47,430 --> 00:06:44,560
conversations so i want to start you

170
00:06:49,270 --> 00:06:47,440
know as we kind of we we have i think

171
00:06:50,870 --> 00:06:49,280
hinted at the spectrum

172
00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:50,880
i want to go through it so if we were to

173
00:06:55,189 --> 00:06:53,120
start if i were to say maybe on the left

174
00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:55,199
side of the spectrum

175
00:06:59,430 --> 00:06:56,000
of

176
00:07:02,469 --> 00:06:59,440
about

177
00:07:04,309 --> 00:07:02,479
the the the qualities of those that are

178
00:07:06,070 --> 00:07:04,319
what we would call maybe believers or

179
00:07:07,749 --> 00:07:06,080
even experiencers as you pointed out

180
00:07:08,950 --> 00:07:07,759
those who've had a firsthand experience

181
00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:08,960
of something

182
00:07:11,830 --> 00:07:10,720
uh

183
00:07:13,990 --> 00:07:11,840
what

184
00:07:15,909 --> 00:07:14,000
in when you're kind of

185
00:07:17,830 --> 00:07:15,919
reading people's reactions or takes on

186
00:07:20,390 --> 00:07:17,840
certain things what what are the

187
00:07:22,070 --> 00:07:20,400
highlights to you of a person that

188
00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:22,080
you know really is kind of firmly in

189
00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:23,680
that camp of

190
00:07:30,390 --> 00:07:28,790
i think

191
00:07:32,629 --> 00:07:30,400
many of them

192
00:07:34,309 --> 00:07:32,639
there has to be a personal piece either

193
00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:34,319
they themselves experience something or

194
00:07:37,749 --> 00:07:36,080
they know someone that did

195
00:07:40,469 --> 00:07:37,759
uh

196
00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:40,479
only because again it's so much outside

197
00:07:44,869 --> 00:07:42,400
of the norm of what's

198
00:07:46,309 --> 00:07:44,879
the accepted consensus reality of what

199
00:07:48,629 --> 00:07:46,319
can happen

200
00:07:51,189 --> 00:07:48,639
that uh that to

201
00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:51,199
get firmly planted in that category of

202
00:07:53,110 --> 00:07:52,400
believer

203
00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:53,120
uh

204
00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:54,560
usually there's something pretty

205
00:07:57,510 --> 00:07:56,560
personal there that's happened

206
00:07:59,909 --> 00:07:57,520
um

207
00:08:01,909 --> 00:07:59,919
some people the rare people like jacques

208
00:08:04,550 --> 00:08:01,919
ville maybe

209
00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:04,560
just the sheer weight of the data itself

210
00:08:08,790 --> 00:08:05,680
you know like

211
00:08:10,469 --> 00:08:08,800
and not just reading you know dry books

212
00:08:12,070 --> 00:08:10,479
or something that are cataloging

213
00:08:13,110 --> 00:08:12,080
experiences but him actually getting out

214
00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:13,120
in the field

215
00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:14,879
and interviewing witnesses and seeing

216
00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:16,000
that these are

217
00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:17,440
professional people with good

218
00:08:22,150 --> 00:08:19,840
reputations who have families and jobs

219
00:08:24,790 --> 00:08:22,160
and responsibilities like everyone else

220
00:08:28,309 --> 00:08:24,800
and he sees how they are fundamentally

221
00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:28,319
changed by these experiences

222
00:08:31,749 --> 00:08:29,919
he becomes convinced over time that

223
00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:31,759
there's no way that that's

224
00:08:35,589 --> 00:08:33,440
being made up and many of these people

225
00:08:37,670 --> 00:08:35,599
would rather it have not happened to

226
00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:37,680
them you know and i know that personally

227
00:08:43,430 --> 00:08:40,240
some of the cases i've researched people

228
00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:43,440
basically did everything they could

229
00:08:47,350 --> 00:08:45,279
they looked at every other alternative

230
00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:47,360
as opposed to this being real

231
00:08:50,630 --> 00:08:48,880
to try to make sense of things you know

232
00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:50,640
people who would rather have had

233
00:08:55,110 --> 00:08:53,120
literally a psychologist declare the

234
00:08:55,750 --> 00:08:55,120
mentally unstable or they have some sort

235
00:08:57,829 --> 00:08:55,760
of

236
00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:57,839
chemical imbalance they need some drug

237
00:09:01,750 --> 00:08:59,360
to manage

238
00:09:03,509 --> 00:09:01,760
some people would rather go there

239
00:09:04,949 --> 00:09:03,519
than actually believe this really

240
00:09:06,949 --> 00:09:04,959
happened to them they got abducted by

241
00:09:10,230 --> 00:09:06,959
aliens or something

242
00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:10,240
so yeah for the for the the strong

243
00:09:13,190 --> 00:09:12,000
believers it's either a personal

244
00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:13,200
experience

245
00:09:15,509 --> 00:09:14,080
or

246
00:09:18,630 --> 00:09:15,519
they are

247
00:09:20,710 --> 00:09:18,640
uniquely qualified to objectively put

248
00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:20,720
aside all presupposition and just let

249
00:09:25,269 --> 00:09:23,040
the data itself speak to them someone

250
00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:25,279
like a jacqueline

251
00:09:28,310 --> 00:09:27,200
you know in that recently in a podcast

252
00:09:29,990 --> 00:09:28,320
episode

253
00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:30,000
i talked about their six-layer model

254
00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:32,800
eric davis and choc-voy and they they

255
00:09:37,750 --> 00:09:35,120
sort of throw critique at both ufology

256
00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:37,760
and mainstream science because both from

257
00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:39,200
their point of view

258
00:09:43,269 --> 00:09:41,920
um tend to skew the data either they

259
00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:43,279
they say this can't happen in the

260
00:09:47,509 --> 00:09:45,440
mainstream science perspective so

261
00:09:49,269 --> 00:09:47,519
why would i even bother looking at it

262
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,279
and then you've got ufology that kind of

263
00:09:52,310 --> 00:09:51,279
like uh pitch and holds it into saying

264
00:09:54,310 --> 00:09:52,320
as long as this fits the

265
00:09:55,509 --> 00:09:54,320
extraterrestrial narrative then we're

266
00:09:57,829 --> 00:09:55,519
good with it and everything else we'll

267
00:10:00,870 --> 00:09:57,839
kind of ignore and suppress

268
00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:00,880
whereas what ballet did was say no

269
00:10:06,069 --> 00:10:03,360
this this is in the data like it's

270
00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:06,079
repeatedly shows up time and time again

271
00:10:09,509 --> 00:10:07,839
i'm going to be convinced by that

272
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:09,519
especially because he met some of these

273
00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:10,560
people

274
00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:12,240
firsthand but

275
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:13,600
with believers

276
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:16,320
definitely the the actual experience

277
00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:19,440
comes into it centrally

278
00:10:24,870 --> 00:10:23,040
right and and there's a quality uh that

279
00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:24,880
is felt

280
00:10:28,949 --> 00:10:27,120
uh kind of viscerally as well that's

281
00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:28,959
what i associate with

282
00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:30,240
uh belief

283
00:10:37,829 --> 00:10:34,000
in my own experience um growing up in a

284
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:37,839
christian tradition you know belief

285
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:43,670
it had a relationship with

286
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:45,120
with knowledge

287
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:46,560
and learning

288
00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:48,640
but it was also something that was

289
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:50,240
deeply felt

290
00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:52,640
that was intuited or or you know

291
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:55,839
subjectively you know kind of verified

292
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:57,760
and i think that that's a when i think

293
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:00,399
about belief at least that's a quality

294
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:02,320
a belief that just you know always kind

295
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:04,480
of comes to mind because of that

296
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:07,360
uh personal experience that i have had

297
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:10,560
that it's not necessarily a um a

298
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:14,720
relationship or a perspective uh with

299
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:18,000
facts per se as it is something that i

300
00:11:23,350 --> 00:11:20,720
have lived or or you know felt in my own

301
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:23,360
being to be true even with the example

302
00:11:26,949 --> 00:11:24,720
of jacques fillet

303
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:26,959
uh you know collecting and

304
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:30,000
researching so many cases and encounters

305
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:31,920
and experiences

306
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,720
he's always you know showing up

307
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:37,360
to the scene after the the crime has

308
00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:39,920
been committed he's he's arriving after

309
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:41,440
the events have taken place so he's

310
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:44,720
getting just relayed information and

311
00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:47,040
it's it's that sheer sort of volume of

312
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:49,360
relayed information that ultimately i

313
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:52,000
would imagine tips the tide in the favor

314
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:55,120
of you know there is some truthfulness

315
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,320
here to this that i can't ignore but i

316
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:01,120
have not myself experienced it but i but

317
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:04,079
it's it's a proximate experience now

318
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:06,160
that is uh in a sort of

319
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:07,040
too

320
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:11,839
in a way almost becomes consumed by the

321
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:15,120
person that investigates it uh

322
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:17,680
and then digested you know

323
00:12:23,829 --> 00:12:19,839
in that in that process so you know i

324
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:23,839
think belief to me at least has a very

325
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,000
you know sort of physicality to it

326
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,480
strong physicality to it um i don't know

327
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:30,320
if you would you know sort of echo that

328
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:32,480
perspective or or not

329
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:34,240
yeah i think i think that's true and i i

330
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,770
think it's it is helpful to

331
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,120
[Music]

332
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:39,920
think about different ways that people

333
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:41,760
sort of ascertain knowledge you know

334
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:44,399
sometimes it's sort of a left brain

335
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,639
objective you know show it to me through

336
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:48,240
the scientific method

337
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:49,360
but

338
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:51,040
and in many ways our culture has kind of

339
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:52,959
been biased towards that

340
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:55,200
there's a strong prejudice towards that

341
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:56,480
even though when we're honest with

342
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:58,000
ourselves uh

343
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:59,440
and you can even see it borne out in the

344
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,800
data when it's when it's actually

345
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,120
studied we make decisions constantly

346
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:05,200
based on gut instinct and things like

347
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:06,560
that and we have these

348
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:08,800
vague terms like gut instinct or

349
00:13:13,030 --> 00:13:11,279
intuition or feeling

350
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,040
but what we're basically saying is there

351
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:15,519
is another side to knowledge another

352
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:18,240
side to reality that we're motivated by

353
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:20,240
that doesn't fit in those those easy

354
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,880
categories

355
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:24,720
so yes i think sometimes it is very

356
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,399
visceral

357
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,870
again when people say

358
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:32,480
they feel it in their gut they use that

359
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:33,680
expression i think because that's what

360
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:35,040
they're saying it's not like some sort

361
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:35,760
of

362
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:38,560
cold calculated you know

363
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:40,399
parsing of data it's more like something

364
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,560
rises up like you say physically in them

365
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:44,480
a heat they feel

366
00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:46,959
that makes them feel invested

367
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:48,160
i think the other thing is important to

368
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:51,199
point out about this this believer side

369
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,560
sort of these three different groups

370
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:54,480
right believer skeptic denier or

371
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:56,000
debunker

372
00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:57,279
i would also say that it's important to

373
00:14:01,910 --> 00:13:59,600
point out that

374
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,920
we want to sort of be fair to everyone

375
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,680
here which means we want to be fair with

376
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:05,279
our

377
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,199
critique right

378
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:11,040
and when we talk about the believers

379
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:12,320
you've got everything from the people

380
00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:13,760
who actually

381
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:15,680
are just attention seekers you know that

382
00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:16,959
people who

383
00:14:21,269 --> 00:14:19,600
basically want the limelight and will

384
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:21,279
play things up

385
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,720
you've got everything from that side of

386
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,720
the spectrum to on the other side of the

387
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,639
believer spectrum someone who this is

388
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:28,160
their worst nightmare they would not

389
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,399
want to be associated with this they've

390
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:31,920
always maybe even some of them been

391
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,720
anti-woo-woo right and yet they have an

392
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:36,480
experience that they they

393
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:39,440
can't see any other way and so even

394
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,800
amongst

395
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,560
we're talking about the broad spectrum

396
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:45,120
right of perspectives believer skeptic

397
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:47,360
denier but i'm saying even within each

398
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:49,279
of these there's a spectrum

399
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:51,519
especially in the believer category

400
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:53,040
because you've got some people who kind

401
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:55,040
of are just kind of that's kind of their

402
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:56,639
inclination

403
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,639
and other people it was absolutely not

404
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:00,240
their inclination but personal

405
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:03,519
experience forced it upon them

406
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,399
yeah that's an excellent point

407
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:10,470
i'm trying to think how best to phrase

408
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:13,680
this but we are so i think uh primed or

409
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:15,920
conditioned to

410
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:16,800
uh

411
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:19,199
approaching any kind of knowledge from

412
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:20,959
the standpoint of

413
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,199
uh

414
00:15:28,389 --> 00:15:25,680
like the almost like an equation or a

415
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:28,399
variable in the equation that that

416
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:33,670
stake out that position or that ground

417
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:35,360
it will be a static thing that is

418
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,480
obtained

419
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,399
and that it is not fluid in any way

420
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:40,480
shape or form it is it is

421
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,440
you know it is a unit a kind of unit of

422
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:45,600
knowledge uh or you have

423
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:48,240
a perspective that is uh that is

424
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:49,440
incredibly

425
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:51,040
uh solid

426
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:54,639
non-permeable uh non-changing

427
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,720
you know that that's who we are we are

428
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:58,800
not people that live in flux we are

429
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:01,519
people that have positions and that have

430
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,320
uh philosophies and those things are

431
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,000
incredibly uh

432
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:08,639
uh sort of either sound or

433
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:09,680
uh

434
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:13,680
like to believe at least that they are

435
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,560
inherently coherent uh you know there's

436
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:18,880
no discordance there and the things that

437
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:22,399
we have come to hold to be true but the

438
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:25,519
the reality is that that all of our uh

439
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:27,440
all of our perspectives

440
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:29,839
every day every moment of every day

441
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:32,560
are going through a a sort of

442
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:33,519
uh

443
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,399
you know

444
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:37,680
experience

445
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:40,079
uh you know we

446
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,720
and and i would hope

447
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:44,399
when it comes to this topic

448
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:47,600
that as we uh you know are digesting new

449
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,519
bits of information

450
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:50,880
and i would hope from the purpose of

451
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,759
this

452
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:53,759
episode as well that we

453
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,880
can recognize when we walk through

454
00:17:02,310 --> 00:16:58,959
these kind of different modalities and

455
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:02,320
also celebrate them and as well as as

456
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:04,720
just as you pointed out uh be be in a

457
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:07,520
position to critique them um and and

458
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,240
maybe that is a good sort of uh

459
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:12,799
transition to spending some time talking

460
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:13,919
about the

461
00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:16,240
uh the kind of the center point here of

462
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:17,919
the spectrum and that is the the

463
00:17:22,230 --> 00:17:20,000
position of the skeptic you know this is

464
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:22,240
someone who uh you know i typically

465
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:24,160
associate with

466
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:26,480
a person who may want to be a believer

467
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,720
but just can't get there

468
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:31,600
and is going to withhold their judgment

469
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:33,120
until they have

470
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:34,640
uh more

471
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:35,919
you know sort of

472
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:38,640
proof for lack of a bit better term uh

473
00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,200
they want so objective data i would i

474
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:43,600
think there are a lot of folks in

475
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:45,840
the kind of ufo circles that that are

476
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,480
skeptics and they they really do

477
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:50,880
they have been uh

478
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:54,720
animated by the idea of ufos but cannot

479
00:18:01,830 --> 00:17:58,799
themselves commit to a particular uh in

480
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:01,840
a sort of uh statement uh of fact

481
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,480
related to the the the topic they want

482
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:06,880
that data they need that proof and until

483
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:08,400
they get it they're just going to sort

484
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:09,919
of sit on the fence

485
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:10,720
uh

486
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,960
as long as possible i have to tell you i

487
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,559
personally identify with that you know

488
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:16,640
it's uh because i am not myself an

489
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:19,520
experiencer uh i think that's where i

490
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:21,840
kind of feel the most at home and and

491
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,840
kind of comfortable uh because i i worry

492
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:27,760
about over committing to something that

493
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:29,760
i have not had direct first-hand

494
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:31,120
experience with

495
00:18:34,789 --> 00:18:32,160
i don't know what what do you think

496
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,799
about when you think about those who you

497
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,559
know really fall into that skeptic

498
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,799
category

499
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:41,200
yeah i think that that's a loaded term

500
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:45,280
skeptic you know or skeptical and uh

501
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:46,640
i would say even just like with the

502
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:49,280
believer group even within the skeptical

503
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:51,200
crowd that's quite a range

504
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:52,960
because you get some people who sort of

505
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,640
are more being

506
00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:56,160
true to the spirit of the word in the

507
00:18:59,669 --> 00:18:57,760
sense of

508
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:59,679
they're not saying they don't believe it

509
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,200
or they do believe it they're saying

510
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:03,600
that they are waiting for

511
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,000
persuasive evidence so it's it's really

512
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,320
meant to be a neutral position

513
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:10,720
based not on emotion and that kind of

514
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:12,240
visceral feeling but based more on

515
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:14,000
something objective

516
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,679
and calculated like data right um

517
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,679
the challenge though i would say is that

518
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:22,000
again like i mentioned already

519
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:25,120
this phenomenon kind of uh

520
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:27,039
does away with our usual expectations

521
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:29,120
about how data is supposed to be amassed

522
00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:31,360
and and how phenomena is supposed to

523
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:34,160
show up and so if you go in with a

524
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:37,440
really rigid perspective on

525
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:39,280
look if it falls in these categories

526
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:41,840
then i will be persuaded my skepticism

527
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:45,039
will be will be uh you know dealt with

528
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:47,200
but the challenge is you can't do that

529
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:49,360
with this phenomenon that it it's its

530
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,880
most perplexing

531
00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:52,960
aspect is that it it

532
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,320
whether you want to say it's some sort

533
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,480
of conscious trickster element that

534
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,600
deliberately confounds our attempts at

535
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,480
trying to get clear data

536
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:04,320
or it's just the nature of itself that

537
00:20:11,029 --> 00:20:07,520
the way it interacts with our space-time

538
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,039
construct uh it comes in in an obtuse

539
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,679
angle and so it just ends up

540
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:15,360
rendering really strangely in terms of

541
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,000
our perception and again even there what

542
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:20,080
we perceive versus versus what's really

543
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:22,320
out there is a a whole other question

544
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:23,600
itself

545
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:25,679
so the skeptical crowd is interesting

546
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,600
and i think also i would i would

547
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,600
encourage people who do sort of take on

548
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:31,919
this moniker

549
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:34,799
to be clear on

550
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:37,520
what would be persuasive to you and and

551
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,400
uh especially with this particular uh

552
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:43,039
data set because it is so tricky

553
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:44,880
for instance i sometimes see people show

554
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,480
up and say and you kind of have to learn

555
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,480
this through the school of hard knocks

556
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,320
will show up in social media like places

557
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:52,400
like ufo twitter and they'll say

558
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:53,840
i'm looking for

559
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,600
i had this happen recently someone said

560
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,880
i'm looking for

561
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:58,880
you know credible evidence to support

562
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:00,240
remote viewing

563
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:02,720
and from my point of view there's plenty

564
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,799
like there's been a hundred years of

565
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:06,640
parapsychological research now that's

566
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:08,240
undeniable

567
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:10,640
and and so i pointed out to this

568
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:12,000
individual that

569
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:13,520
not only is there a lot of good data but

570
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:16,880
even the cia funded a program with sri

571
00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:18,799
russell targ hal put off people we've

572
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:20,720
talked about before they ran for 20

573
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,799
years straight and i said

574
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,440
the cia does not fund programs for 20

575
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,280
years if it's not producing valid intel

576
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:29,520
especially in the midst of the cold war

577
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,080
and his comeback was ah the cia

578
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:33,840
absolutely will fund ridiculous things

579
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:35,280
i've seen it time and time again and

580
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:37,039
blah blah blah blah

581
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:39,360
my point being that i don't think he was

582
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:40,960
actually

583
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:43,280
in that case an individual looking for

584
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:46,559
data he wasn't looking to be persuaded

585
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:47,919
he basically was coming in with a

586
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:49,440
position

587
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:54,880
to be a skeptic willing to look at data

588
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:57,360
objectively so you kind of have to you

589
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,400
know

590
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,919
look out for the wolves and sheep

591
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,440
sheep's clothing

592
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,440
in this field because you will get

593
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:05,600
people like that who

594
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,240
basically are out to debunk and the and

595
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,720
you have to get good at recognizing that

596
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:13,120
person is open to having a conversation

597
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,840
and open to being persuaded by data

598
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:17,520
other people will sound like they are

599
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,360
and are not so

600
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,280
the the line between the skeptic versus

601
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:23,440
denier or skeptic versus debunker is

602
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,960
sometimes

603
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:27,200
a tricky one because

604
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,880
it sounds better

605
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:31,200
it sounds more objective sounds more

606
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:33,919
neutral to show up as a skeptic

607
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:36,240
but sometimes people who who wear that

608
00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:37,840
moniker are actually more like a

609
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:40,240
debunker and they've they have very

610
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:41,679
hard-line

611
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,919
categories but what can happen

612
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:45,679
and since the phenomenon seems to

613
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:48,320
confound those they are out to basically

614
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:49,919
do away with that annoying data that

615
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,120
doesn't fit their pre-existing

616
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:52,880
categories

617
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,600
yes and and i think too there's a sense

618
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:57,280
of self-preservation

619
00:23:02,789 --> 00:23:00,320
that is tied with that uh skepticism

620
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:02,799
uh that um

621
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,640
you know look none of us want to be

622
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:07,120
wrong none of us want to be uh made a

623
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:09,039
fool you know and if you've ever been

624
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:10,320
made a fool

625
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:12,080
uh if you've ever been made you know to

626
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:13,440
feel wrong

627
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,000
it's not a good feeling

628
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:18,080
that the bad feelings stay with us

629
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:19,840
pretty strongly that's part of our

630
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:20,960
survival

631
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:23,360
uh drive you know to remember what what

632
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:25,760
hurts us and feels bad and avoid those

633
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:27,440
things at all costs

634
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:30,880
and so we we take that as a

635
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:33,200
uh that experience

636
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:35,440
you know into the way in which we

637
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:37,919
interact with the world around us

638
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:40,640
and we we create a shell

639
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,679
that prevents us from over committing to

640
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:44,720
something

641
00:23:48,149 --> 00:23:45,520
uh

642
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,159
you know otherwise we risk you know kind

643
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:50,159
of being made a fool being being

644
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,279
vulnerable

645
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:53,200
uh being hurt again so it's it's very

646
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:55,279
much that kind of protective

647
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:56,080
uh

648
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,120
reflex

649
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:01,360
um and you know again i i do identify

650
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:04,159
with it and and i wonder

651
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,960
uh

652
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,279
you know i do wonder to what degree

653
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:09,360
my religious upbringing you know plays a

654
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:13,120
part in in kind of my comfort level

655
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:15,120
with that particular category you know

656
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:17,600
sort of coming to a place in my own life

657
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:19,039
where

658
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:20,960
the truths of my

659
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:24,240
belief you know no longer sort of rang

660
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:25,200
true

661
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:29,600
and i was i sort of had a sense in which

662
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:32,000
it had been a fool's errand you know to

663
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:34,720
place belief in in those things and so

664
00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:37,520
you know don't fool me once right

665
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:40,159
shame on me uh

666
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:41,760
or what you know i never know that

667
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:44,240
phrase neither does george bush bush but

668
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:45,120
uh

669
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:48,799
position there

670
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:51,279
um and then i think that that does bleed

671
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:53,039
into

672
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:53,840
the

673
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:00,880
protective mechanism is

674
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:03,520
is on you know a sort of extreme display

675
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,240
you know it's it's um

676
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:09,120
you know it's that sort of

677
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:11,200
see no evil hear no evil speak no evil

678
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:13,120
i'm not going to let anything kind of

679
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:14,720
come into this

680
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:17,600
inner space i have already staked out my

681
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:18,720
position

682
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:21,279
and no matter what you put forward to me

683
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:24,960
i'm going to hunt down

684
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:28,240
the things the items that only buttress

685
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:30,799
what i've already concluded and that is

686
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:33,039
that you're wrong

687
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,320
and that

688
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:36,559
that that feels pretty good if you're

689
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:38,159
good at that if you've kind of made that

690
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,919
your landing spot

691
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:42,000
uh you know you're going to feel i think

692
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:43,840
a strong sense of

693
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,279
of of

694
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:46,880
purpose and power

695
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:50,320
in the act of committing to that process

696
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,600
over and over again in fact you're going

697
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,279
to look for and this is what we see in

698
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:55,360
the behavior too you're going to look

699
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:58,799
for opportunities to do that

700
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:00,799
and and you're going to

701
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:03,440
kind of take delight in opportunities to

702
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,799
exercise that

703
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:08,799
tendency that you that you've developed

704
00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:11,360
so strongly yeah several really

705
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:13,840
important points in there i think uh

706
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:15,760
again we're getting back to this

707
00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:17,840
visceral aspect again

708
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:19,039
um

709
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:20,640
you'll sometimes see people who again

710
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:22,880
will sort of posture themselves as if

711
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:25,600
they are cool and collected and hey man

712
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,440
i'm just all about the data

713
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,840
but number one like you said

714
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:31,919
some have a vested interest in

715
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:33,600
protecting a certain position even if

716
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:34,640
they're not

717
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:36,559
either being honest about it or they may

718
00:26:39,909 --> 00:26:38,240
not even be self-aware about it that

719
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:39,919
that's what they're really doing

720
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:42,960
they may have convinced themselves

721
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:45,120
that they are all about objectively

722
00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:46,880
evaluating data

723
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,480
and yet what you'll sometimes notice is

724
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:51,120
when there's increasing

725
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,360
amounts of data

726
00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:55,679
challenging their current position

727
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:57,200
they'll get more and more heated and

728
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:58,720
you'll you'll notice them even getting

729
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:00,159
defensive

730
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:02,640
and that is a clear sign that they're

731
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:04,240
beginning to experience cognitive

732
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:05,360
dissonance

733
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:07,919
that they are being confronted by data

734
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,240
data that does not fit with their their

735
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,640
preconceptions

736
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:14,320
and that's why we get so many heated

737
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:15,520
debates

738
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,120
uh in in the ufo twitter land because

739
00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:21,200
people have a vested interest

740
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:23,520
we are not robots right we don't just

741
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,679
look at data and uh

742
00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:27,039
you know ascribe

743
00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:29,679
identity in one set versus another

744
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:30,559
we

745
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:33,440
have very visceral reactions and when

746
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,520
our very world view our very way of

747
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,600
making sense of why we get up in the

748
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:39,120
morning and what can possibly happen to

749
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:40,320
us that day

750
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:43,039
gets challenged very few people

751
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:46,080
are prepared to handle that well um

752
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:49,440
and on top of that you know

753
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:52,080
the the mainstream scientific circles

754
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,520
have kind of become the modern day

755
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:54,799
priesthood we've talked about this

756
00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:57,279
before right so they kind of have a

757
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,440
position of entitlement

758
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,679
that they're not even

759
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:03,200
they feel so

760
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:04,880
comfortable in that position that they

761
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,880
really believe that

762
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:08,880
centuries and centuries and centuries of

763
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:10,240
investigation

764
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:12,320
have already made it very clear that

765
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:14,240
their position is correct that even when

766
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:15,679
they're coming in saying they're

767
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:17,120
skeptical and they're willing to

768
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:19,039
consider different positions

769
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,480
really they're coming in more from a

770
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:23,360
defensive posture of saying

771
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:24,880
sure i'll use all the right language but

772
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,559
listen we know what's real right we've

773
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:28,399
already established that over the last

774
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:29,600
several centuries we don't need to go

775
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:30,720
back to the church we don't want to go

776
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:33,120
back to some sort of spiritual woo stuff

777
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:35,600
so let's let's be clear let's look at

778
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,919
evidence let's make sure we can study it

779
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:40,159
scientifically in a lab and make sure

780
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:42,240
it's reproducible if it's not it's not

781
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:45,200
real blah blah so

782
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:47,120
we also have to deal with that too that

783
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:48,240
um

784
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:50,000
a lot of the skeptics are coming from

785
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:52,480
that sort of mainstream position as well

786
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,520
that

787
00:28:57,830 --> 00:28:55,440
and it's very difficult it's a rare

788
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:57,840
breed to find someone who's equally

789
00:29:01,990 --> 00:28:59,120
skeptical

790
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:02,000
about the current mainstream perspective

791
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:04,480
as is someone who's skeptical about

792
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:06,159
something they consider woo-woo you know

793
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:07,840
what i mean like in other words

794
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,880
skepticism should be neutral

795
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:13,120
and yet in reality it's often not in the

796
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,559
same way that

797
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,120
uh you know in the middle ages whatever

798
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,720
it was very difficult

799
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:20,000
for

800
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:23,760
uh skeptics to believe that galileo was

801
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,520
right you know what i mean

802
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:27,679
um

803
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,080
in the same way today when mainstream

804
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:32,480
science you know has the four

805
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:35,360
it's it's very difficult for people to

806
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:36,320
um

807
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:37,679
really position themselves to be

808
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:39,440
skeptical about that because the bottom

809
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:41,679
line is again this is visceral

810
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,720
belief systems do come in we'd like to

811
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,320
as human beings even though we

812
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:48,159
constantly trade

813
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:49,679
one world view for another over the

814
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:51,760
history course of our history

815
00:29:55,669 --> 00:29:53,840
we we very rarely in fact we've never

816
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:55,679
gotten to a point where we said listen

817
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:57,679
we've learned our lesson the key is to

818
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:58,799
not be

819
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:59,840
you know

820
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:01,840
too concretized around one worldview so

821
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:03,120
we're going to sit back and we're not

822
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:04,559
going to do that no that's not what we

823
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:05,600
do we just

824
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,000
adopt a new one over top of the old one

825
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:10,080
and we basically often sort of cancel

826
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:11,600
out the old one and think everything bad

827
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:13,760
about it and think the new one is is

828
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,720
fresh and golden and sweet smelling

829
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:18,480
and uh

830
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:19,840
you know

831
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:21,919
sort of the modernist materialistic

832
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:23,440
perspective probably had the greatest

833
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,000
sway in like the 19th century

834
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:28,080
but it's still very strong today even

835
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:29,520
after all the revelations that have come

836
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:31,840
out of quantum mechanics and whatnot and

837
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:33,120
so again

838
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,279
a lot of the skeptics that show up are

839
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:37,440
coming from that position of entitlement

840
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:38,240
that

841
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:40,640
they represent the establishment as it

842
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:43,039
is today

843
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:44,720
yeah it's funny because a as you're

844
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,880
talking about i i apologize to our

845
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:48,000
listeners i'm going to keep coming back

846
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:50,480
to using my children as an analogy but i

847
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:52,000
think we've all been children so i think

848
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:54,320
we can relate to this too uh but you can

849
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,440
map on to the spectrum the the human

850
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:59,279
development right so

851
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:02,000
from believer to skeptic to to

852
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:04,640
denier uh you know which is a very

853
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:06,720
strong word to use and we can kind of

854
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:08,000
come up with other words there other

855
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:09,600
than even debunker

856
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,399
but

857
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:12,559
if you follow me through this when when

858
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:13,840
we're young

859
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:16,480
we our default position really is very

860
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:19,600
much kind of a a faith

861
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,559
you know sort of trust uh in in in our

862
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:24,320
parents and in the world that they are

863
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,080
portraying to us that that that's the

864
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:28,240
way things are i don't i don't have a

865
00:31:33,509 --> 00:31:30,559
way of my of my

866
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,519
that i can myself verify

867
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:35,440
you know sort of what what is true or

868
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:38,080
not it has been mediated to me from my

869
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:39,600
caregivers who

870
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:41,919
who you know meet every need that i have

871
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:44,320
and and why would i not trust them so so

872
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:48,799
that belief begins at a very young age

873
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:51,760
and then inevitably as as we all have

874
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:53,440
had an experience some of us have an

875
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:54,559
experience

876
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,799
uh sooner in our lives than others but

877
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,559
inevitably

878
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,200
those individuals let us down you know

879
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,000
those uh caregivers will will fail us in

880
00:32:09,269 --> 00:32:06,480
some way it may be a small way or a big

881
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:09,279
way but failure it is and we will that

882
00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:10,080
that

883
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:15,919
and and what made sense

884
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:18,159
now starts to have a crack and and kind

885
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:21,279
of you know is shaken and then that that

886
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:23,519
transition that you see happen often in

887
00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:25,679
in a kind of young adulthood

888
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:27,440
teenager years you know

889
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,440
you're learning to kind of figure out

890
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:31,360
what is what is your truth you're going

891
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:32,080
to

892
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,960
uh

893
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:34,960
you know sort of be a little bit on the

894
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,320
fence about

895
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,480
what you are told because you know again

896
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:40,240
you don't want to be hurt you don't want

897
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:42,960
to over commit to someone and then as we

898
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:44,799
get older and we see this happen i see

899
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:46,480
it in my own life the older i get you

900
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:47,840
know the more

901
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,480
uh i kind of instinctively react to

902
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,159
things that are different

903
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,919
and want to

904
00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:55,679
you know say well no it's not that you

905
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,519
know uh it's actually like that it's

906
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:59,600
only this uh i know you think it's like

907
00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:02,080
that young people

908
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:03,679
uh but it's not you know and i think

909
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:05,600
that that so that's only natural through

910
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:07,760
our lived experience that you know that

911
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:10,240
we kind of arrive and at that place so

912
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:12,880
so even physiologically you know these

913
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:15,600
uh sort of modes are things that i think

914
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:17,039
we can relate to

915
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,080
uh just in our in our lived experience

916
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:22,640
uh and and you know on that note and

917
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:25,120
i've already talked about my own sort of

918
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:27,679
comfort level or position of comfort on

919
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:30,559
this spectrum uh even though i i have

920
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:32,799
found myself at the other places as well

921
00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:34,000
but exo

922
00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:35,679
you know i know we've talked about this

923
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,720
a lot in our private conversations

924
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,640
you've certainly been through all three

925
00:33:44,789 --> 00:33:42,799
of these uh sort of areas in your own

926
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:44,799
life

927
00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:46,960
yeah and i think that um

928
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:49,600
we we've talked before about

929
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:51,760
once you've been through

930
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:54,080
one or two worldview shifts

931
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:55,440
and you've experienced that cognitive

932
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:57,200
dissonance

933
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:00,399
you hopefully hold your most recent one

934
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:04,399
a bit more loosely and not so tightly

935
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,880
and

936
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,480
but nevertheless it's never a good

937
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:10,800
feeling when you start noticing there's

938
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,879
mounting evidence that your way of

939
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:14,720
seeing the world is insufficient or

940
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:16,320
especially if it feels starts to feel

941
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:18,399
wrong misguided

942
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:19,919
that's not a good feeling you know you

943
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,320
sort of think about someone who has to

944
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:24,639
retrain for their career like halfway

945
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:26,240
through their adult life it's not a good

946
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:27,760
feeling

947
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:29,280
most people have the energy and the

948
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:32,480
wherewithal to do that at 20 you know

949
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:34,399
not so much later in life

950
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:37,119
in the same way

951
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:38,960
yes getting back to your point the older

952
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:41,200
we get the more in some ways rigid we

953
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:42,000
are

954
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,960
um

955
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,560
we have more experience behind us so

956
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:46,639
we're more convinced of the way we've

957
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:48,480
seen things and it's it

958
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:50,079
becomes more and more difficult for us

959
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:53,200
to stay flexible and malleable

960
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:55,520
um

961
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:00,630
first of all i would say with the

962
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:03,760
believer part i've definitely had

963
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:05,599
some of my own experiences which i've

964
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,839
shared at various places including on

965
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,359
point of convergence

966
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,119
and i think when i talked to you guys on

967
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:15,349
had that experience of things that are

968
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:18,480
not supposed to happen like i'm i was

969
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:20,240
i think i was very left-brained at that

970
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:21,430
point and um

971
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:22,960
[Music]

972
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:26,000
you know i had a certain idea of uh

973
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,839
what could or couldn't happen in reality

974
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:29,280
and yet i had an experience of something

975
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:30,800
that was not supposed to be one of those

976
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:31,839
things

977
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,240
and so you're confronted with it and you

978
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:36,320
know on top of that experienced it with

979
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:38,000
someone else too so i know it wasn't

980
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:40,640
just bad pizza or my own delusion if it

981
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:42,880
was delusion it was a shared delusion

982
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:45,839
um and there were physiological effects

983
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:49,760
and whatnot that showed up as well so um

984
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:51,359
you come away going

985
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:52,800
feeling this cognitive dissonance

986
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,920
because you go

987
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:56,160
wow the data i have a really hard time

988
00:36:01,349 --> 00:35:59,280
dismissing here like i would have rather

989
00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:01,359
written it off as as a weird dream or

990
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:03,680
something but it wasn't a dream

991
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:05,920
um and

992
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:08,560
it wasn't delusion um

993
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:10,960
so you are confronted with

994
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:13,200
okay i have to create a new category now

995
00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:14,800
and that's not a fun feeling it really

996
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:16,000
isn't you

997
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,930
you um

998
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:18,640
[Music]

999
00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:21,200
again we have an emotional attachment to

1000
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:24,160
our perspectives and we

1001
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,599
the same way it's a shock to the system

1002
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,359
when we find out santa claus maybe isn't

1003
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,680
what we thought he was um in the same

1004
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:30,720
way

1005
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,040
even more so as adults we are less

1006
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,760
malleable or more concretized

1007
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:37,440
with all the responsibilities we have to

1008
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:39,599
juggle it's not a good feeling when your

1009
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:41,200
very understanding of reality is

1010
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:42,320
questioned

1011
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:45,920
um so i've been through that personally

1012
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,240
so that definitely

1013
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:50,560
changes my perspective i can know what

1014
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,640
it feels like to i mean thankfully i've

1015
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:54,720
never been around people who

1016
00:36:57,910 --> 00:36:56,720
uh you know would mock me for having

1017
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:57,920
that experience or anything like that

1018
00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:00,240
i've never been around that kind of

1019
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:02,240
crowd of people um

1020
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:04,320
but i know people that are and i see

1021
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:06,839
people who suffer because

1022
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:10,000
um people basically ridicule them mock

1023
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:11,760
them for even claiming to have such an

1024
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:13,520
experience

1025
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:15,040
so that's how i sort of got to the

1026
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:17,280
believer part um

1027
00:37:21,910 --> 00:37:19,599
but i should also say when i i still

1028
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:21,920
bring healthy skepticism to that

1029
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,400
believer aspect though you know like i

1030
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,240
i see some people

1031
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:29,119
uh on ufo twitter for instance

1032
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:30,079
i think

1033
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,160
make this two black and white they they

1034
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:34,480
try and make it too binary you know it's

1035
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,280
like

1036
00:37:39,270 --> 00:37:37,920
you're either 100 in the believer camp

1037
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:39,280
you know the experience for camp or

1038
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:40,720
you're not what's it going to be you

1039
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:42,800
know tell us right now

1040
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:44,720
no you're in or you're out and i just

1041
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,320
don't think that's

1042
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:48,480
a helpful fruitful or realistic way to

1043
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:49,520
look at it

1044
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,040
you're still going to have the spectrum

1045
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:53,440
of people everything from people who are

1046
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:55,200
absolutely truthful and would rather

1047
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:57,359
this not have happened to some people

1048
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,839
who have fanciful imaginations and maybe

1049
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,599
are looking for attention

1050
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:03,680
you still have to accept that that will

1051
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:05,119
be in there

1052
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,599
part of the reason why i land firmly in

1053
00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:09,760
the

1054
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:13,119
something is happening on mass to a lot

1055
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:14,640
of people is because of the sheer

1056
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:16,800
numbers so partly what i do there and

1057
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:19,040
sometimes i'll have so-called skeptics

1058
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:21,680
say to me oh so you just accept every

1059
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:24,320
every you know circumstantial case every

1060
00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:25,440
hearsay

1061
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,720
uh account as real and i say no i don't

1062
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,480
i assume actually a certain percentage

1063
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:32,480
of them are flat out false

1064
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,240
what i'm saying is when you have that

1065
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:36,720
much data that that brought a body of

1066
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:40,560
data you can say 10 15 20 falls through

1067
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:44,000
the cracks as a misidentification or

1068
00:38:49,589 --> 00:38:47,440
fraud or whatever exaggeration but you

1069
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:49,599
still even after

1070
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:51,440
you know building in some pretty healthy

1071
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:54,400
filters you've got just a huge amount of

1072
00:38:57,510 --> 00:38:55,680
data saying something really is

1073
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:57,520
happening so

1074
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:59,680
that's the way i personally apply

1075
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:01,839
healthy skepticism i think

1076
00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:04,000
you you come away

1077
00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:05,599
looking at the totality of the data i

1078
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,040
say this all the time you know we have

1079
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:09,040
to look at the totality of the data and

1080
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:11,760
what i mean by that is you allow for all

1081
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,680
those different aspects those different

1082
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:15,440
filters and see what you're left with

1083
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:16,960
when you do allow for some of those

1084
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,440
cases

1085
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:21,359
and i would also say too that i i re

1086
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:22,960
there was a period in my life where i

1087
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:24,480
was pretty

1088
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:26,480
um

1089
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:29,280
you know rigidly modern

1090
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:31,680
uh and

1091
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,480
physicalist in my perspective and

1092
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,000
you might have called me a denier you

1093
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,720
know like i i um

1094
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:40,079
i remember when i was younger being

1095
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:41,760
around people who claim to be seeing

1096
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:44,000
things and i just assumed look if i

1097
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,160
can't see it and if somebody else in the

1098
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:48,000
room here can't see it can't be real

1099
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:50,160
like at that point in my life i assumed

1100
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,240
that anything that was quote unquote

1101
00:39:59,670 --> 00:39:57,990
by definition had to be perceivable

1102
00:40:02,550 --> 00:39:59,680
by everyone

1103
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:02,560
there now we know the phenomenon

1104
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:04,720
constantly challenges that assumption

1105
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:05,839
right that

1106
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:07,520
you'll have um

1107
00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:10,000
people that know each other well even

1108
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:13,200
either see like in my case you know

1109
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,640
i saw something slightly different than

1110
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:16,240
my wife saw you know even though we saw

1111
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,520
basically the same thing there were some

1112
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,520
subtle differences

1113
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:21,760
but some people will say look do you not

1114
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:24,160
see that ufo and and someone will say no

1115
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:25,520
i don't see anything what's there you

1116
00:40:30,309 --> 00:40:28,160
know and and yet we see that happen time

1117
00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:30,319
and time again so

1118
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:31,920
that's when the whole question about is

1119
00:40:35,750 --> 00:40:33,680
this being projected into individual

1120
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:35,760
consciousnesses or you know into our

1121
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:38,000
perceptual apparatus or what's going on

1122
00:40:40,630 --> 00:40:39,440
i think it's even more complicated than

1123
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,640
that

1124
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,560
but

1125
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,319
again it comes down to the

1126
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:46,400
presuppositions you bring in so like i

1127
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:47,760
said at one point in my life i would

1128
00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:49,119
have said

1129
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:50,960
if something's real everybody there has

1130
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,520
to see it now i would absolutely say

1131
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:55,440
that's not the case the phenomenon

1132
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:57,599
confounds that assumption

1133
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:59,200
but again i'm i'm

1134
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,280
sympathetic to those who have a hard

1135
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:03,119
time seeing that because until you've

1136
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:04,560
had an experience like that or until

1137
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:06,000
you've become really familiar with the

1138
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:07,440
data

1139
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,640
that is the

1140
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,160
the suppose you know the supposition

1141
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:11,760
that exists in our in our mainstream

1142
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,240
society

1143
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,240
yeah and i i was thinking too like when

1144
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:18,880
i went from when i left the kind of

1145
00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:24,470
you know i didn't go into the skeptic

1146
00:41:28,309 --> 00:41:26,079
phase i actually went right into the

1147
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:28,319
denier phase so i

1148
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,680
i didn't

1149
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:30,880
um

1150
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,680
kind of gradual gradually take that path

1151
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:35,680
i actually took the opposite

1152
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:39,760
um and that probably is fairly common

1153
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:42,160
uh to have that journey

1154
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,280
either way

1155
00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:44,960
you know so if you're a believer and

1156
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:48,560
that belief has been uh you know sort of

1157
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:50,720
shattered uh

1158
00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:52,640
you know you've been confronted

1159
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,800
with something that you can no longer

1160
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:56,400
ignore

1161
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:58,000
you know as again that defensive

1162
00:42:01,829 --> 00:41:59,359
mechanism

1163
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:01,839
you know your tendency will be to take

1164
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:03,839
the opposite approach so i i certainly

1165
00:42:07,349 --> 00:42:04,720
did

1166
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:07,359
uh in my life and it went from

1167
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:09,760
you know kind of being open-minded about

1168
00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:10,720
uh

1169
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:12,079
you know people's

1170
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:13,839
experiences that they would share to

1171
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:15,280
kind of taking the position that you

1172
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:17,200
articulated that

1173
00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:18,960
you know if it's not something that most

1174
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:22,000
people are having or that we don't have

1175
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,440
uh you know sort of a photograph of or

1176
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,359
you know some other you know data that

1177
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:29,599
we can look at then it's just something

1178
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:32,240
that happens you know in in your mind it

1179
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:35,040
happens you know you you imagined this

1180
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:35,920
uh

1181
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:38,560
you know out of whole cloth

1182
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,839
and i think that that's a fairly common

1183
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,599
step to take and then and the opposite

1184
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:45,359
is true as well so you could be in the

1185
00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:46,880
denier camp

1186
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:50,000
in a a sort of very staunch you know

1187
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:50,960
sort of

1188
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:51,680
uh

1189
00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:54,160
modernist you know and have an

1190
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:57,200
experience that you can no longer deny

1191
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:00,240
uh and and it confronts you just as uh

1192
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:03,760
profoundly uh if not more perhaps um and

1193
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:05,280
so you do have that

1194
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,480
uh you know sort of ontological shock

1195
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,119
and you go right into that believer camp

1196
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:12,800
pretty quickly

1197
00:43:16,069 --> 00:43:14,480
totally and i i when i think about what

1198
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,079
you just described there a couple things

1199
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:18,000
come to mind one is that

1200
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,440
i think

1201
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:20,880
you would probably admit that part of

1202
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:23,520
the reason why you had such a

1203
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:25,359
massive shift basically going from one

1204
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:26,560
pole to the other

1205
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:28,240
is because when you again have that

1206
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,280
feeling of being lied to or feeling like

1207
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:33,839
a fool or you know whatever

1208
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,560
you retreat to a safe position right and

1209
00:43:41,349 --> 00:43:38,720
so suddenly going from

1210
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:41,359
believing some things can happen to then

1211
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:42,960
feeling like evidence is mounting

1212
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:44,720
suggesting that was all

1213
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:46,000
a farce

1214
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:47,680
the safe position i'm talking about

1215
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:50,240
emotionally right not objectively but

1216
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:52,160
emotionally the safe position is not to

1217
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:54,160
move to the center and say okay i'm

1218
00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:56,960
going to go right at the 50 50 line and

1219
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:58,960
wait for evidence what we do is to

1220
00:44:03,750 --> 00:44:01,119
protect ourselves emotionally we go

1221
00:44:05,829 --> 00:44:03,760
right to the other pole and say

1222
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:05,839
none of this is real prove me wrong

1223
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:06,640
right

1224
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:09,200
and it's like it's on you uh to prove me

1225
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:10,240
wrong

1226
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:12,160
so there's that part but i think another

1227
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:13,280
part that

1228
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,160
for me really was a wake up is that when

1229
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,480
we when we're young

1230
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,319
we tend to think that

1231
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:22,160
the consensus reality what the

1232
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:25,920
mainstream power sort of put forward

1233
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:29,119
has really been objectively and fairly

1234
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:31,680
discerned you know over many many many

1235
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:34,240
many years decades centuries and so we

1236
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:35,839
have a really the same way like you

1237
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,040
talked about our parents right we have

1238
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:39,440
that initial trust in our parents that

1239
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:40,960
everything they say is golden and why

1240
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:43,599
would they ever deceive us and

1241
00:44:48,069 --> 00:44:46,079
uh we we also sort of take that view

1242
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:48,079
towards societal powers and so i think

1243
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:48,880
even

1244
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,440
many people right now have difficulty

1245
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,280
accepting the reality of the ufo

1246
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,880
phenomenon because they don't see

1247
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,240
widespread

1248
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:58,079
acceptance or acknowledgement amongst

1249
00:45:02,309 --> 00:45:00,319
the powers that be and so they for some

1250
00:45:04,230 --> 00:45:02,319
people that creates cognitive dissonance

1251
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,240
that if this is really real on the level

1252
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:06,800
you're talking about why is this not

1253
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,800
headline news or being talked about by

1254
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,520
our politicians right

1255
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,520
but i think

1256
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:15,839
one of the shocks to my system was

1257
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:22,309
there's very much a lack of objectivity

1258
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:24,880
behind the consensus position

1259
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:27,040
and when you get to a certain period in

1260
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:28,079
time where

1261
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:29,920
something's been the consensus position

1262
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:31,520
for a long time like we have right now

1263
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:33,839
with like a rigid rigid modernist kind

1264
00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:36,000
of physicalist perspective that what

1265
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,040
really

1266
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:39,359
counts as real is is matter and energy

1267
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:41,119
things we can measure be the scientific

1268
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,720
method everything else is kind of mushy

1269
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:44,800
and not real subjective right these are

1270
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:47,119
bad words slurs almost

1271
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:48,400
um

1272
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:49,440
you

1273
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:51,280
but i found that

1274
00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:54,800
actually that the system as it is as is

1275
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:58,000
always the case in every era in society

1276
00:46:02,790 --> 00:45:59,760
is actually set up to defend that

1277
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:02,800
position not to try and accurately

1278
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:05,119
fairly gauge all possibilities but

1279
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,640
actually there's a vested interest in

1280
00:46:10,069 --> 00:46:08,079
the same way that you had invested

1281
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:10,079
emotional interest in protecting

1282
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:11,760
yourself by swinging to the other pole

1283
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:13,119
and saying i'm not going to believe any

1284
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:15,680
of this we as a society do that too

1285
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:18,880
because we as a society as a collective

1286
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,720
like to feel like we know what the heck

1287
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:22,079
is going on

1288
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:24,000
it's not a good feeling the way that

1289
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:25,920
we've been raised anyway in our society

1290
00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:27,760
maybe less so in shamanic cultures but

1291
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:28,880
in our

1292
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:31,520
culture for a very long time

1293
00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:35,839
we we believe in rationality you know

1294
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:37,599
and we believe that

1295
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,280
when we approach the world with certain

1296
00:46:45,349 --> 00:46:43,520
ways to gauge it to measure it that it's

1297
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:45,359
going to always return

1298
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,880
absolute

1299
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:48,560
predictable results that we're pretty

1300
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:50,640
sure we know what they are ahead of time

1301
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,839
uh so

1302
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:53,280
for me that was a big part of it was

1303
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:55,200
recognizing

1304
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:00,150
uncomfortable moment where you recognize

1305
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:03,119
okay if the consensus sort of powers the

1306
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:04,319
b

1307
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:08,160
or they don't even have the capacity to

1308
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:09,599
because they're blinded by their own

1309
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:10,960
prejudice

1310
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:12,079
what else

1311
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,079
are we not being honest about and what

1312
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:16,480
else are we not really engaging with in

1313
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:19,040
a in a truly fair and objective way in

1314
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,760
the way that we claim to be so that that

1315
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:23,839
that then you have a sort of

1316
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:25,520
two levels of it you have your own

1317
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,280
emotional

1318
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:29,359
trauma around things happening perhaps

1319
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:30,480
that you couldn't understand but then

1320
00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:31,920
you also recognize that the powers that

1321
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,720
be

1322
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:34,160
actually have a vested interest in

1323
00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:35,839
protecting a current position rather

1324
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,839
than really evaluating from a fair point

1325
00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:43,349
yes well these outer sort of states uh

1326
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:45,680
do in fact mirror our inner states right

1327
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:46,960
so that's

1328
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:47,760
uh

1329
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,599
something we've talked about in the past

1330
00:47:55,030 --> 00:47:51,599
as well

1331
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:55,040
as as we accumulate more experience

1332
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:58,640
you know we have an inertia that uh

1333
00:48:04,829 --> 00:48:01,200
you know is is is built up

1334
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:04,839
and that's incredibly powerful um

1335
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:07,920
and you know in a way it kind of takes

1336
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:10,960
on a life of its own

1337
00:48:14,230 --> 00:48:12,480
and i think you alluded to this you know

1338
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:14,240
just sort of societally

1339
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:15,839
you know that that

1340
00:48:19,589 --> 00:48:18,400
we are born into a structure

1341
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:19,599
a world

1342
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:22,240
where there are a particular set of

1343
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:23,359
facts

1344
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,839
uh and that has existed before we were

1345
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:28,079
here you know we just sort of

1346
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:30,800
appeared on the scene and you know are

1347
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,760
going to

1348
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:33,119
absorb

1349
00:48:37,829 --> 00:48:36,160
you know everything that is in that mix

1350
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:37,839
uh you know and i think if we look

1351
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:40,160
through history we're going to see

1352
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:43,280
uh mirrored in historical movements

1353
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:44,319
uh

1354
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:46,319
the same kinds of modalities that we've

1355
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:47,760
already talked about you know so a

1356
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:49,760
period of human history

1357
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:52,960
very much centered on uh belief

1358
00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:56,079
you know on uh a system of beliefs that

1359
00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:58,319
you know very sort of viscerally felt

1360
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,520
not uh necessarily objectively

1361
00:49:06,230 --> 00:49:04,000
analyze the way and we in which we would

1362
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:06,240
consider that to be done today and those

1363
00:49:09,510 --> 00:49:07,200
belief

1364
00:49:12,309 --> 00:49:09,520
structures and mythologies

1365
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:12,319
became challenged you know became

1366
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:15,599
no longer functionally valuable um and

1367
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:18,800
once they lost their uh sort of power

1368
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:20,559
their narrative power

1369
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,480
uh over over the lives of the individual

1370
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:26,400
then you saw this you know kind of

1371
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:29,599
proliferation of alternative ideas

1372
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:32,640
of of you know sort of a plethora of

1373
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:35,920
emerging mythologies uh that existed in

1374
00:49:42,630 --> 00:49:39,520
in society uh that challenged that sort

1375
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:42,640
of old conventional thinking uh and then

1376
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,839
in that mix of of different ideas

1377
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:47,280
you know you had

1378
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:49,200
sort of gave it gay ultimately gave

1379
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,680
birth to the modern world and which we

1380
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:53,359
live which has showed all of those

1381
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:56,000
things so you can see just right there

1382
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:57,040
kind of a

1383
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:58,640
you know and a very

1384
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,520
you know kind of simplistic overview

1385
00:50:05,990 --> 00:50:03,119
the path that

1386
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:06,000
we as as human civilization have taken

1387
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:09,200
through these uh ways of understanding

1388
00:50:14,950 --> 00:50:12,960
uh what what what is true and it's it's

1389
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:14,960
very likely that

1390
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,720
that we are going to

1391
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:19,040
continually move through these different

1392
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,160
phases

1393
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:22,640
uh not only in our own personal lives

1394
00:50:28,630 --> 00:50:26,480
but in our lives uh as a collective and

1395
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:28,640
i think that that's an important

1396
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,520
uh in a sort of point

1397
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:34,079
to highlight because

1398
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:35,599
we are

1399
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:38,319
anytime we're going to be grappling with

1400
00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:40,000
uh something that is going to

1401
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,960
potentially shatter the paradigm of our

1402
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:45,040
of our conventional understanding

1403
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:48,319
uh we need to be prepared for the

1404
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:51,839
fallout uh that that occurs in the wake

1405
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:54,480
of that impact and i think we could

1406
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,839
pretty fairly say that uh

1407
00:51:01,270 --> 00:50:58,960
that

1408
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:01,280
you know human civilization being told

1409
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:03,280
that we are not alone you know that we

1410
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:05,440
are not the only kind of type of

1411
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:07,760
intelligence that there's a you know

1412
00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:09,839
there are other intelligences on par or

1413
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:11,760
maybe more intelligent than we are

1414
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,160
that's a pretty profound uh in a

1415
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,319
paradigm shifting moment

1416
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,319
we are going to then have to grapple

1417
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,200
with all of the downstream consequences

1418
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,839
because that will absolutely shatter our

1419
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:25,920
notions of uh

1420
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,640
of truth it will it will absolutely

1421
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:30,960
shatter uh our

1422
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,359
you know kind of

1423
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:35,520
modernistic kind of worldview we're

1424
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:38,720
going to have people that will uh

1425
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:41,119
jump right into the belief camp

1426
00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:43,119
uh you know and believe you know

1427
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:44,880
whatever

1428
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:47,280
that it leaves open that door in a way

1429
00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:49,920
it's like well if that's true then what

1430
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:52,000
else is true anything is true you know

1431
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:53,839
so i'm gonna believe it all now

1432
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,680
everything that i've ever heard as being

1433
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:58,079
you know fantastical that also must be

1434
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:58,960
true

1435
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:01,359
uh and then similarly you know folks are

1436
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:02,960
going to

1437
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:05,040
uh look at that with a very skeptical

1438
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:06,160
position

1439
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,720
uh you know i i

1440
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:10,559
and that and that way that too will be

1441
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:11,839
impacted by

1442
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:14,160
just the ways in which

1443
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:17,680
the message is is is provided and we've

1444
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:21,359
talked about this some too but they're

1445
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,599
you know how do you

1446
00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:25,359
i feel like we're in a unique position

1447
00:52:32,309 --> 00:52:26,800
now in history

1448
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:35,030
coming to a consensus on what is true

1449
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:37,040
and so how do these different sort of

1450
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:38,480
approaches

1451
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:40,800
uh and different perspectives you know

1452
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:42,480
how do they

1453
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:44,400
work their way through

1454
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:47,119
what is being told to us and and from

1455
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:49,040
whom it comes from you know it is

1456
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,720
because it's no longer traditional it's

1457
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:52,079
no longer just like well i read it in

1458
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:53,599
the newspaper

1459
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:55,839
and that's you know i can i can agree my

1460
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:57,440
neighbor can agree

1461
00:53:00,870 --> 00:52:59,440
we're on the same page here

1462
00:53:02,870 --> 00:53:00,880
it's it's we're going to be entering we

1463
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:02,880
already are entering into a different uh

1464
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:05,040
sort of way of understanding

1465
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:07,119
what what is true

1466
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:08,720
yeah when you were talking there i was

1467
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,480
thinking about thomas kuhn and his um

1468
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:14,559
his definition of the the structure of

1469
00:53:18,790 --> 00:53:16,960
scientific revolutions you know and he

1470
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:18,800
he kind of challenged this notion that

1471
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:19,599
we

1472
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:22,160
um that science sort of

1473
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:24,079
is about the steady progression of the

1474
00:53:28,309 --> 00:53:26,559
accumulation of new ideas that science

1475
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:28,319
basically is just an additive process

1476
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,880
that moves in one direction in a steady

1477
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:32,160
way and

1478
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:34,160
fine-tuning along the way that's that's

1479
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,839
actually not what has happened

1480
00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:37,200
historically

1481
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,800
what happens is you have a certain

1482
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:40,880
dogmatic perspective even within science

1483
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:42,480
which is not supposed to be dogmatic but

1484
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:45,680
it certainly is just like any other

1485
00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:47,359
strong

1486
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:49,520
identity system right

1487
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:51,920
and initially when data comes forward

1488
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:53,839
that challenges some of the existing

1489
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,520
scientific perspective

1490
00:53:59,589 --> 00:53:57,680
it's usually ridiculed

1491
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,599
at first and and kind of made fun of

1492
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,200
because it's almost like that

1493
00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:03,359
come on we all know that can't be true

1494
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:05,200
so why are you even bothering telling us

1495
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,559
about this

1496
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:07,839
then it gets the point where as the

1497
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,640
evidence grows more and more you will

1498
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:12,240
actually find it becomes almost

1499
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,240
violently opposed that's the word he

1500
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:16,400
that the phrase he uses is violent

1501
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:18,559
opposition now on the one hand we might

1502
00:54:23,829 --> 00:54:20,720
say why would anyone get violent about

1503
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:23,839
ideas but of course we do as individuals

1504
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:25,680
and as a collective

1505
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:28,720
again we have a vested interest in

1506
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:30,880
feeling like we know what's going on and

1507
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:32,400
before you can even adopt a new

1508
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:34,319
perspective you have that uncomfortable

1509
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,440
in-between zone of i don't know what the

1510
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:39,599
heck's going on and what counts as real

1511
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,520
no one likes that

1512
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:44,000
zone some some more so than others but

1513
00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:45,839
most people do not like that feeling and

1514
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:46,880
that's why you get the violent

1515
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:48,960
opposition because it's it's the

1516
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:51,280
it's the final stand so to speak of the

1517
00:54:54,309 --> 00:54:53,119
the previous guard saying

1518
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:54,319
this is the way we've always seen the

1519
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:56,000
world and i'm gonna i'm this is the hill

1520
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:58,319
i'm gonna die on to say this is true

1521
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:00,400
now what's interesting is is the third

1522
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:02,559
stage is um

1523
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:04,640
that the new

1524
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:08,400
perspective is accepted as self-evident

1525
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:10,880
that's so fascinating to me it goes from

1526
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:13,119
violent opposition to self-evident

1527
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,240
truths

1528
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,640
uh so

1529
00:55:20,150 --> 00:55:18,160
i think we always need to remember that

1530
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:20,160
that that we've been through this before

1531
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,839
with our collective society and we will

1532
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,359
go through it again

1533
00:55:26,789 --> 00:55:24,960
the revelations coming out of the

1534
00:55:29,349 --> 00:55:26,799
phenomenon absolutely are one of these

1535
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:29,359
scientific revolution moments where

1536
00:55:32,630 --> 00:55:30,559
um

1537
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:32,640
you will get people who will almost

1538
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:35,040
violently oppose this

1539
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:37,920
and on top of that you've got the added

1540
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:40,000
piece of of these sort of people coming

1541
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:41,920
from a really fundamentalist religious

1542
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:43,119
point of view

1543
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:45,280
who they are convinced it's angels and

1544
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:48,960
demons mostly demons and so they will

1545
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:51,119
uh think that even to talk about these

1546
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:53,359
things is to give power to that right

1547
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:55,280
we've talked about this before

1548
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:58,000
so you get you've got some very strongly

1549
00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:01,280
embedded vested interests not interested

1550
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:02,400
in in

1551
00:56:07,589 --> 00:56:04,880
acknowledging this phenomenon whatsoever

1552
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:07,599
and that's why you get

1553
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:09,520
the bizarre scenario we have now where

1554
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,599
so many of us are aware of data that's

1555
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:13,359
staring us in the face and yet it's not

1556
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,400
being talked about uh i think

1557
00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:18,240
again for anyone who's come from sort of

1558
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:20,559
the modernist sort of mainstream

1559
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:23,200
perspective that

1560
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:24,640
you think that that's a valid way of

1561
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:25,920
seeing the world and it's been tested

1562
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:27,760
and proven and you take you take as

1563
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:30,000
self-evident that the current powers

1564
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:31,440
that be have done all their homework

1565
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:32,880
they know all that stuff so that's why

1566
00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:34,240
we can grow up and accept what we're

1567
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:35,440
taught in school

1568
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,960
then you get to a point as an adult

1569
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:38,079
especially when you've been confronted

1570
00:56:41,349 --> 00:56:39,520
with data for instance in the ufo

1571
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:41,359
phenomenon

1572
00:56:45,829 --> 00:56:43,359
where you realize that's not the case

1573
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:45,839
that there are absolutely

1574
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:47,520
things that are happening in our world

1575
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:49,920
in our reality that are not talked about

1576
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:52,960
because the consensus reality has a an

1577
00:56:57,030 --> 00:56:54,799
unspoken data set that you're allowed to

1578
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:57,040
draw from and it's taboo

1579
00:57:01,750 --> 00:56:59,599
to to not and that's why

1580
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:01,760
ever since 2017 the revelations that

1581
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:04,240
came out of those new york times article

1582
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,440
has been about

1583
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,520
uh the first few years is trying to just

1584
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:09,839
trying to get past this the the uh this

1585
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:12,160
you know snide remarks on the x-files

1586
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:13,359
music

1587
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:15,119
because none of that of course is based

1588
00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:17,520
on an evaluation of the data objectively

1589
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:18,880
it's based on

1590
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:21,359
the presupposition about this we know

1591
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:23,599
this is silly you know tin foil hat

1592
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:24,839
stuff

1593
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:28,079
uh flat earth kind of thing

1594
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:29,680
so

1595
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:31,920
we always need to remember that that

1596
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,440
as much as we'd love to next week

1597
00:57:39,829 --> 00:57:37,520
have you know the today show have a

1598
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:39,839
segment where we see joe biden or some

1599
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:42,640
other political figures maybe together

1600
00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:43,520
saying

1601
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:45,599
it's time to come clean this is what's

1602
00:57:48,789 --> 00:57:47,280
really been going on

1603
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:48,799
that's not how these things work they

1604
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:50,640
worked themselves up from the ground up

1605
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:52,720
actually and we talked about this a

1606
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:54,559
couple episodes ago how this tends to

1607
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:56,559
happen with our governments versus the

1608
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,280
populace and and what gets proposed as a

1609
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:01,440
belief system and and often you actually

1610
00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:03,280
have to have an intense

1611
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:06,160
upsurge from the grassroots so to speak

1612
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:07,680
from the people

1613
00:58:11,829 --> 00:58:09,599
and a lot of lobbying

1614
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:11,839
but before you actually get people to

1615
00:58:16,710 --> 00:58:14,160
even listen to your argument from an

1616
00:58:18,549 --> 00:58:16,720
objective point of view so that's what's

1617
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:18,559
happening here i think is you could

1618
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:19,920
argue that

1619
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:21,599
uh the people on the scene like the

1620
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:23,280
luella zondos and the chris melons of

1621
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,319
the world are out there trying to lobby

1622
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:28,880
to make this to normalize this as a

1623
00:58:33,190 --> 00:58:30,720
topic that's primarily what they've been

1624
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,200
doing is just trying to normalize it

1625
00:58:38,309 --> 00:58:35,520
get on every network they can every show

1626
00:58:39,750 --> 00:58:38,319
they can every podcast they can

1627
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:39,760
just to

1628
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:43,839
have a sheer repetition of this message

1629
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:46,319
so people begin to subtly shift towards

1630
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:47,760
being open

1631
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:51,119
to objectively analyzing the data and

1632
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:52,160
that's what i'm saying here you have to

1633
00:58:56,230 --> 00:58:53,680
go through the entire process before

1634
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,240
people will even be ready to look at the

1635
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:58,559
data

1636
00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:00,559
yeah and i want um

1637
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:02,400
i want our listeners too to understand

1638
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:05,920
that this is not i i think

1639
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:09,040
it's easy to approach this topic

1640
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:11,119
and and our discussion of it from the

1641
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:13,680
vantage point of oh

1642
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:15,760
you know that sort of exo and nathan

1643
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:17,280
just kind of

1644
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:18,640
really just

1645
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:21,520
playing with words here as we you know

1646
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:24,160
talk about this issue and that

1647
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:26,480
we're we're in a way almost carving out

1648
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:27,680
a position

1649
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:30,240
uh for ourselves that is uh you know to

1650
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:31,920
a certain degree neutral but i think

1651
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,079
what we are advocating for

1652
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:36,240
is really looking at each of these

1653
00:59:39,750 --> 00:59:38,559
positions these different frameworks and

1654
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:39,760
saying

1655
00:59:43,589 --> 00:59:42,240
they are each valuable they are each

1656
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,599
bringing to

1657
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:45,200
the table

1658
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,319
to to whatever may come out of

1659
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,799
you know the channels of disclosure you

1660
00:59:54,309 --> 00:59:52,400
know they're going to bring something

1661
00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:54,319
important uh to

1662
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:56,240
to that revelation

1663
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:57,920
uh that

1664
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:00,640
that it's good to be a believer

1665
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:03,200
sometimes it's good to be a skeptic it's

1666
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:06,160
good to be a denier these are all

1667
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:06,960
uh

1668
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:08,160
normal

1669
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:09,520
healthy

1670
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:14,559
and necessary sort of states of being

1671
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:17,520
with respect to not just the phenomenon

1672
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:18,240
but

1673
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:20,720
lived experience period

1674
01:00:24,630 --> 01:00:22,319
you know so

1675
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:24,640
you know if you are a healthy

1676
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:27,040
uh person with any lived experience in

1677
01:00:30,950 --> 01:00:30,000
your at all you know you should be able

1678
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:30,960
to

1679
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:34,799
modalities

1680
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:36,400
and be okay

1681
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:38,960
with with with finding yourself

1682
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:40,400
comfortably

1683
01:00:45,990 --> 01:00:43,359
you know within the parameters of the

1684
01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:46,000
those modalities themselves uh you know

1685
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:47,280
i i

1686
01:00:50,710 --> 01:00:49,040
want to say to those that are in that

1687
01:00:54,069 --> 01:00:50,720
believer camp

1688
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,079
you know that is valid valuable

1689
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,559
and and good you know so it's

1690
01:01:00,150 --> 01:00:58,880
it's important that you

1691
01:01:01,910 --> 01:01:00,160
i think uh

1692
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:01,920
you know kind of share that experience

1693
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:03,920
with with people that you try to you

1694
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:05,440
know articulate

1695
01:01:10,230 --> 01:01:08,480
why it is that you do believe uh

1696
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,240
and and and be okay with that and don't

1697
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:12,160
feel that you have to be

1698
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:15,839
necessarily apologetic uh for that

1699
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:18,000
either you know we do live in a culture

1700
01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:18,799
that

1701
01:01:23,190 --> 01:01:20,480
you know i think does kind of

1702
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:23,200
reflexively look down on those that that

1703
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:26,480
believe uh you know but

1704
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:28,559
i would sort of challenge

1705
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:31,520
uh that perspective uh for a variety of

1706
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:33,920
reasons and those that are skeptical

1707
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:36,000
you know it's important it's important

1708
01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:38,400
to be skeptical of what you hear

1709
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:40,799
um of what you've been told of kind of

1710
01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:43,760
where information is coming from

1711
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:45,599
you know we all should be

1712
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,960
able to sort of don that hat uh and and

1713
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:50,400
kind of suss out

1714
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:52,640
what it is that we uh

1715
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:54,640
are are hearing and looking at

1716
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:57,599
and then the denier stance look

1717
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:00,640
if we didn't hold strong positions even

1718
01:02:08,390 --> 01:02:03,440
you know pre preconceived positions

1719
01:02:09,750 --> 01:02:08,400
uh you know we would be so uh malleable

1720
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:09,760
and gullible

1721
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:11,920
and foolish that you know we wouldn't

1722
01:02:15,029 --> 01:02:14,240
make it quite frankly you know there are

1723
01:02:17,190 --> 01:02:15,039
uh

1724
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:17,200
there are very good reasons why you know

1725
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:19,280
we have kind of generational knowledge

1726
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:22,799
that uh you know for the most part has

1727
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:23,599
has

1728
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:25,200
kept us safe

1729
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:27,359
uh you know through through many

1730
01:02:31,829 --> 01:02:30,000
different adversities and i would think

1731
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:31,839
that uh i would i would you know be

1732
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:34,480
grateful uh for those that you know kind

1733
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,720
of have have gained that kind of place

1734
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:38,400
of wisdom

1735
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:39,920
and are comfortable

1736
01:02:43,270 --> 01:02:40,799
uh

1737
01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:43,280
you know defending it even in the face

1738
01:02:45,029 --> 01:02:44,160
of

1739
01:02:47,349 --> 01:02:45,039
uh

1740
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:47,359
you know a challenge to that to that

1741
01:02:49,990 --> 01:02:48,400
perspective

1742
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:50,000
so you know it's really kind of taking

1743
01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:51,760
all these things together

1744
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:54,079
and being able to sort of

1745
01:02:57,670 --> 01:02:55,760
flip through them like a deck of cards

1746
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:57,680
in a way or you know different lenses

1747
01:03:00,789 --> 01:02:58,720
that you wear

1748
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:00,799
and say you know what what rings true

1749
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:02,640
after after going through this and i

1750
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:03,839
would think that you'll find and

1751
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,960
actually i'd love to hear what you think

1752
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:06,960
about it if after going through those

1753
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:08,400
steps you'll find that there's something

1754
01:03:12,230 --> 01:03:10,799
true in each one of them

1755
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:12,240
yeah i think that's true and i think i

1756
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:14,720
would also say that when you brought up

1757
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:17,280
the the category of believers and the

1758
01:03:20,950 --> 01:03:18,480
you know the

1759
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:20,960
conception the notion of belief

1760
01:03:25,349 --> 01:03:22,079
i think it's definitely important that

1761
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:25,359
we point out that those who come from a

1762
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:27,920
uh a reductionistic materialistic point

1763
01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:31,119
of view that's as much a belief system

1764
01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:33,520
as is someone who believes that we're

1765
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:36,160
being visited by non-human intelligence

1766
01:03:39,190 --> 01:03:37,839
of a sophisticated nature i think that's

1767
01:03:39,990 --> 01:03:39,200
the first thing we should clarify here

1768
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:40,000
that

1769
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:42,640
um sometimes those people coming with

1770
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:44,400
that perspective though will either not

1771
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:45,760
acknowledge that or they will not even

1772
01:03:49,910 --> 01:03:47,440
be self-aware of it because again that's

1773
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:49,920
the power of the consensus view

1774
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:52,240
is that you ha you're kind of blinded to

1775
01:03:56,069 --> 01:03:55,119
your own crap and and you

1776
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:56,079
that's just

1777
01:04:00,069 --> 01:03:58,000
par for the course

1778
01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:00,079
i'll be honest and say that you know the

1779
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:02,160
mick wests of the world kind of can

1780
01:04:08,390 --> 01:04:04,240
drive me a bit crazy

1781
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:09,109
the

1782
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:15,839
just assumes

1783
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,119
that he's coming from the correct

1784
01:04:22,549 --> 01:04:19,119
perspective and

1785
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,789
i think you know

1786
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,880
will be so convinced that he's coming

1787
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:28,799
from the correct perspective that he

1788
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,079
will

1789
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:32,720
put forward for instance his his uh

1790
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:35,440
analysis of a certain event even over

1791
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:36,720
experts

1792
01:04:41,670 --> 01:04:39,119
expert witnesses pilots and whatnot

1793
01:04:44,150 --> 01:04:41,680
who've spent their entire career

1794
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:44,160
training to for instance recognize enemy

1795
01:04:48,309 --> 01:04:46,000
aircraft and whatnot they've done it for

1796
01:04:50,870 --> 01:04:48,319
decades they do it instinctually at this

1797
01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:50,880
point and yet he thinks by analyzing a

1798
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,359
video you know he he a grainy video that

1799
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:54,799
he acknowledges and kind of makes fun of

1800
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:55,599
being

1801
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,720
a granny that he can come to a a more

1802
01:05:03,430 --> 01:05:00,720
accurate conception than they can

1803
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:03,440
because he has so much belief so much

1804
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:07,280
dogmatic belief in his presuppositional

1805
01:05:11,029 --> 01:05:09,280
framework that's what i think is really

1806
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:11,039
important to point out here it's not

1807
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:13,440
that he's convinced that

1808
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:15,839
there's a b or c options and i think all

1809
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:18,640
the evidence is on a it's more that he

1810
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:21,039
believes that we have an uh century's

1811
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:23,520
worth of um

1812
01:05:29,670 --> 01:05:27,440
evaluation of data that already makes a

1813
01:05:31,829 --> 01:05:29,680
the 99 possibility and that's why you

1814
01:05:35,109 --> 01:05:31,839
pick up that almost mocking tone like

1815
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:35,119
come on what's more likely you know uh

1816
01:05:39,190 --> 01:05:38,160
a pigeon or you know alien spacecraft

1817
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:39,200
kind of thing

1818
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,240
and he's convinced of it right so

1819
01:05:46,549 --> 01:05:44,400
but on the other hand i will admit this

1820
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:46,559
i will say that if

1821
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:49,200
as we know as i strongly believe there

1822
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:51,839
is there is a here here right

1823
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:53,760
there there's something going on

1824
01:05:56,950 --> 01:05:55,760
um then

1825
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:56,960
eventually

1826
01:06:01,910 --> 01:06:00,000
those people who would want to deny

1827
01:06:03,829 --> 01:06:01,920
will play their role too because they're

1828
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:03,839
the ones that will sometimes take the

1829
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:04,799
time

1830
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:07,680
to analyze to the nth degree to put

1831
01:06:11,589 --> 01:06:09,760
forward every other possibility until

1832
01:06:13,589 --> 01:06:11,599
like sherlock holmes says

1833
01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:13,599
if only one possibility remains no

1834
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:15,760
matter how outlandish it is it must be

1835
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:17,359
the true answer

1836
01:06:20,870 --> 01:06:18,400
so

1837
01:06:22,630 --> 01:06:20,880
they play a role in that sense

1838
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:22,640
and i do think even the mick west of the

1839
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:25,200
world can sometimes play a role in

1840
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:26,960
helping us to

1841
01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:30,319
not fall into the the um erroneous

1842
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:32,400
assumption that every believer story

1843
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:34,559
that comes forward or every

1844
01:06:38,549 --> 01:06:37,359
strange anomaly seen in the sky is an

1845
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:38,559
actual

1846
01:06:42,630 --> 01:06:40,799
spacecraft or some sort of anomalous

1847
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:42,640
phenomenon sometimes it is

1848
01:06:46,470 --> 01:06:44,640
just atmospheric phenomena or an

1849
01:06:47,910 --> 01:06:46,480
aircraft or not in fact

1850
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:47,920
i think those of us who've looked at

1851
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:50,480
this data for a long time would say that

1852
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:53,039
like 98 of the time that's going to be

1853
01:06:56,309 --> 01:06:54,480
one of the things and i think we have to

1854
01:06:58,230 --> 01:06:56,319
be careful not to

1855
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:58,240
uh develop our own bias when we're

1856
01:07:01,829 --> 01:07:00,079
around a community that

1857
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:01,839
knows so much of this is real to start

1858
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:03,760
thinking it's like everywhere all the

1859
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:04,880
time

1860
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:06,240
that's not the case and part of the

1861
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:08,000
reason why this is a hard sell is

1862
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:10,000
because most of the time it is something

1863
01:07:13,510 --> 01:07:11,440
prosaic

1864
01:07:15,270 --> 01:07:13,520
but what we want to challenge the

1865
01:07:17,349 --> 01:07:15,280
audience to here

1866
01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:17,359
is is to be okay with both those

1867
01:07:22,549 --> 01:07:20,160
statements then something can be 98 of

1868
01:07:25,109 --> 01:07:22,559
the time prosaically explainable

1869
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:25,119
but there is that two percent that truly

1870
01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:26,960
is an anonymous

1871
01:07:32,230 --> 01:07:29,520
and people like mick west can help us

1872
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:32,240
identify the 98 percent and because of

1873
01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:34,559
the rigor you will in hopes

1874
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:36,240
of their analysis

1875
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:37,920
we're left with that two percent that

1876
01:07:41,829 --> 01:07:39,760
cannot be explained through prosaic

1877
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:41,839
means and it's that two percent that's

1878
01:07:45,109 --> 01:07:43,280
going to eventually

1879
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:45,119
begin to shift the uh the majority

1880
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:46,710
perspective

1881
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:48,000
[Music]

1882
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:49,280
i think of this as almost like an

1883
01:07:57,829 --> 01:07:56,390
you know it's a trial uh that

1884
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:57,839
refines

1885
01:08:00,950 --> 01:07:59,599
what is understood

1886
01:08:01,829 --> 01:08:00,960
uh and so

1887
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:01,839
we

1888
01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:06,240
the sort of i'm gonna use some different

1889
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:08,079
terms here but you know kind of the

1890
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:11,200
dreamers and uh and we also require

1891
01:08:13,910 --> 01:08:12,640
those that are

1892
01:08:15,109 --> 01:08:13,920
uh

1893
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:15,119
you know the

1894
01:08:18,229 --> 01:08:16,719
for lack of a better term here like the

1895
01:08:19,110 --> 01:08:18,239
conservatives the

1896
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:19,120
the

1897
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:25,679
already understood

1898
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:28,560
you know these are

1899
01:08:33,829 --> 01:08:29,839
important

1900
01:08:36,149 --> 01:08:33,839
human psychological qualities that

1901
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:36,159
that benefit our survival and advance

1902
01:08:41,110 --> 01:08:38,799
our knowledge advance our understanding

1903
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:41,120
of what is real

1904
01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:43,679
and there are times in our history

1905
01:08:49,829 --> 01:08:47,359
when the dreamers have been right and

1906
01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:49,839
you know they made a gamble

1907
01:08:54,630 --> 01:08:52,000
on their dream and it ended up paying

1908
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:54,640
off in a very significant and profound

1909
01:09:00,070 --> 01:08:58,239
uh civilization changing way

1910
01:09:02,390 --> 01:09:00,080
and then there have been times when they

1911
01:09:03,349 --> 01:09:02,400
have been absolutely wrong

1912
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:03,359
and

1913
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:06,480
uh their fantasies you know were were

1914
01:09:11,590 --> 01:09:07,679
harmful

1915
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:11,600
uh and were rightly condemned uh you

1916
01:09:15,829 --> 01:09:13,199
know the the civilizations were

1917
01:09:18,630 --> 01:09:15,839
preserved because they rejected some

1918
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,640
some of those fantastical notions so

1919
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:21,040
you know i think about this uh very

1920
01:09:26,709 --> 01:09:23,839
often particularly in our highly kind of

1921
01:09:28,390 --> 01:09:26,719
uh polarized you know political climate

1922
01:09:31,349 --> 01:09:28,400
that they're

1923
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:31,359
that the value of of both of these

1924
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:33,600
positions of these sort of psychological

1925
01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:34,640
traits

1926
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:37,679
is is inherently good

1927
01:09:42,630 --> 01:09:39,920
and you know when we

1928
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:42,640
we are all going to find ourselves you

1929
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:45,359
know generally in one of those camps

1930
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,040
uh you know

1931
01:09:51,269 --> 01:09:49,440
you know for the most part um hopefully

1932
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:51,279
we can kind of have the presence of mind

1933
01:09:56,390 --> 01:09:53,920
to be able to transition across them and

1934
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:56,400
you know sort of value uh you know all

1935
01:09:59,510 --> 01:09:58,080
of them but you know we're generally

1936
01:10:01,270 --> 01:09:59,520
going to be kind of in one side or

1937
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:01,280
another any given time

1938
01:10:06,070 --> 01:10:04,480
and i think if we understand that and we

1939
01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:06,080
are listening

1940
01:10:11,990 --> 01:10:09,360
uh to those that we disagree with

1941
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:12,000
we can still value what they bring to

1942
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:17,590
because of these qualities and so you

1943
01:10:21,830 --> 01:10:19,280
know i would just challenge that you

1944
01:10:24,149 --> 01:10:21,840
know for anyone that you know feels very

1945
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:24,159
strongly about where they are

1946
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:26,159
and they're entering into a dialogue

1947
01:10:32,430 --> 01:10:30,000
with someone on on this topic of ufos or

1948
01:10:34,630 --> 01:10:32,440
the phenomenon or high strangeness or

1949
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:34,640
paranormality or whatever or any other

1950
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:36,239
topic that

1951
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:38,080
we kind of

1952
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:41,360
lead with a charitable position and uh

1953
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:46,950
still see the value in those with whom

1954
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:48,560
we disagree

1955
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:50,640
i think if we can do that we are going

1956
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:52,159
to

1957
01:11:03,910 --> 01:11:01,199
and not just a series of uh of insult

1958
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:07,430
yeah i i agree with that completely

1959
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:09,120
i think it's um

1960
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:10,719
we need to move forward with you know

1961
01:11:15,189 --> 01:11:12,480
holding a couple of different

1962
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:15,199
um tools at our disposal

1963
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:16,560
one is uh

1964
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:18,880
a vessel of charity like you say

1965
01:11:23,910 --> 01:11:22,320
um i also think we need to have a uh a

1966
01:11:26,070 --> 01:11:23,920
tool of discernment too and what i mean

1967
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:26,080
by that is

1968
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:26,880
to

1969
01:11:36,550 --> 01:11:35,040
a conversation and they're using

1970
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:36,560
language as if

1971
01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:38,239
they are but really it becomes clear

1972
01:11:42,550 --> 01:11:40,480
that they're not and they're trying to

1973
01:11:45,430 --> 01:11:42,560
defend a position and and coming at it

1974
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:45,440
with an assumptive kind of perspective

1975
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:47,199
that of course they have to be right and

1976
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:48,640
we can't be right

1977
01:11:53,430 --> 01:11:51,600
um then i think you can in a

1978
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,440
peaceful way without being mean-spirited

1979
01:11:56,390 --> 01:11:55,120
you can exit that conversation in other

1980
01:11:57,750 --> 01:11:56,400
words i think

1981
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:57,760
we want to encourage people to be

1982
01:12:00,790 --> 01:11:59,120
charitable but the same time that

1983
01:12:01,990 --> 01:12:00,800
doesn't mean you have to spend three

1984
01:12:03,430 --> 01:12:02,000
hours

1985
01:12:05,590 --> 01:12:03,440
talking with someone who's just gonna

1986
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:05,600
debunk till the cows come home no matter

1987
01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:07,440
what you show them and no matter what

1988
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:10,640
evidence that exists some people are not

1989
01:12:15,110 --> 01:12:12,480
honest brokers

1990
01:12:16,149 --> 01:12:15,120
that that's the case too so again we can

1991
01:12:18,149 --> 01:12:16,159
we don't have to be mean spirited

1992
01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:18,159
towards those people but i think we want

1993
01:12:23,590 --> 01:12:19,600
to choose to have productive

1994
01:12:26,070 --> 01:12:23,600
conversations um i would also say that

1995
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:26,080
evolution is always messy you know when

1996
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:26,880
we

1997
01:12:29,510 --> 01:12:27,760
uh

1998
01:12:30,950 --> 01:12:29,520
not just with the phenomenon but any

1999
01:12:31,990 --> 01:12:30,960
kind of

2000
01:12:34,310 --> 01:12:32,000
um

2001
01:12:36,630 --> 01:12:34,320
period that a society goes through

2002
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:36,640
you always have those that are trying to

2003
01:12:39,430 --> 01:12:38,239
push for change

2004
01:12:41,189 --> 01:12:39,440
those that are kind of in the middle

2005
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:41,199
going we've got it mostly right and

2006
01:12:45,430 --> 01:12:43,520
those holding up the tails saying

2007
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:45,440
we're veering way off course we got to

2008
01:12:49,669 --> 01:12:47,840
stick with what used to be true you know

2009
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:49,679
and always should be true

2010
01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:50,640
and

2011
01:12:55,830 --> 01:12:52,880
yes like you said each of those plays a

2012
01:12:58,229 --> 01:12:55,840
role and each um creates a certain

2013
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:58,239
uh pla almost like a safety valve in the

2014
01:13:02,070 --> 01:13:00,480
system you know to prevent

2015
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:02,080
galloping into something that could be a

2016
01:13:04,630 --> 01:13:03,360
big mistake

2017
01:13:06,550 --> 01:13:04,640
you just like we have different

2018
01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:06,560
personalities that play different roles

2019
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:08,880
and each is valuable in the same way

2020
01:13:16,229 --> 01:13:12,560
each of these positions plays a role

2021
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,239
i think also if you run into someone who

2022
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,159
starts getting almost aggressive in

2023
01:13:25,030 --> 01:13:20,320
their

2024
01:13:26,390 --> 01:13:25,040
kind of materialist point of view

2025
01:13:28,310 --> 01:13:26,400
rules the day and therefore there's no

2026
01:13:31,350 --> 01:13:28,320
way some of the stuff can be true

2027
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:34,070
see if they're open to examining that

2028
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:35,360
perspective

2029
01:13:39,590 --> 01:13:37,520
so um because again if someone's coming

2030
01:13:41,270 --> 01:13:39,600
from that perspective already then no

2031
01:13:43,590 --> 01:13:41,280
matter amount of data you can show them

2032
01:13:44,950 --> 01:13:43,600
is going to change their mind so you can

2033
01:13:47,430 --> 01:13:44,960
again see

2034
01:13:49,270 --> 01:13:47,440
uh you know pragmatically diplomatically

2035
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:49,280
if you could shift the perspective make

2036
01:13:53,270 --> 01:13:51,360
shift the conversation into that

2037
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:53,280
but if not then i would again i would

2038
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:55,600
encourage people to gracefully exit the

2039
01:13:59,590 --> 01:13:57,679
conversation so

2040
01:14:01,270 --> 01:13:59,600
i think all of us have to in the midst

2041
01:14:03,430 --> 01:14:01,280
of this messiness that is the

2042
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:03,440
evolutionary process

2043
01:14:06,950 --> 01:14:05,840
um we each have to think about how we

2044
01:14:09,830 --> 01:14:06,960
can

2045
01:14:11,669 --> 01:14:09,840
make our time most valuable and and uh

2046
01:14:12,830 --> 01:14:11,679
take care of ourselves as well you know

2047
01:14:16,229 --> 01:14:12,840
and

2048
01:14:18,550 --> 01:14:16,239
um i think

2049
01:14:20,229 --> 01:14:18,560
we also have to recognize that for those

2050
01:14:22,070 --> 01:14:20,239
of us who are kind of on the cutting

2051
01:14:24,550 --> 01:14:22,080
edge those of us who

2052
01:14:27,110 --> 01:14:24,560
have seen what's coming that the the

2053
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:27,120
majority has not yet seen yet

2054
01:14:31,830 --> 01:14:28,800
it's going to be a bit of a lonely

2055
01:14:33,750 --> 01:14:31,840
feeling and you you have to just

2056
01:14:34,470 --> 01:14:33,760
become comfortable with some degree of

2057
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:34,480
just

2058
01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:36,480
with some degree of discomfort you know

2059
01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:39,040
and that sounds almost uh you know

2060
01:14:43,350 --> 01:14:40,880
paradoxical but

2061
01:14:44,870 --> 01:14:43,360
i think what i'm saying is if like we've

2062
01:14:46,550 --> 01:14:44,880
talked about when you've been through

2063
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:46,560
evolved through several different world

2064
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:48,000
views where you really shifted your

2065
01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:50,560
perspective on what is real what that

2066
01:14:54,149 --> 01:14:51,760
entails

2067
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:54,159
then hopefully you hold it more lightly

2068
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:55,840
you also

2069
01:14:59,830 --> 01:14:57,840
don't judge too harshly those who are

2070
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:59,840
not there yet because you know that you

2071
01:15:03,270 --> 01:15:01,440
once weren't there either that's what

2072
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:03,280
we're partly trying to say here is that

2073
01:15:09,270 --> 01:15:06,239
even in our lives we've held different

2074
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:09,280
positions that we wouldn't hold now

2075
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:11,199
what good does it do to judge those who

2076
01:15:16,229 --> 01:15:12,880
are in that position when we ourselves

2077
01:15:18,870 --> 01:15:16,239
were there at one point and and you know

2078
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:18,880
judgment and scorn wouldn't have changed

2079
01:15:21,510 --> 01:15:20,159
us

2080
01:15:23,590 --> 01:15:21,520
it's not going to change them either so

2081
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:23,600
you always still have to approach these

2082
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:24,880
people with

2083
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:27,760
uh you know a gracious attitude

2084
01:15:33,270 --> 01:15:30,800
um but again i think it is important to

2085
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,280
sort of wield the tool of uh of

2086
01:15:38,950 --> 01:15:35,679
discernment too and and try to see where

2087
01:15:41,030 --> 01:15:38,960
people really coming at this from

2088
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:41,040
yeah well i want to tie this into

2089
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:47,510
what

2090
01:15:51,270 --> 01:15:49,920
this experience

2091
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:51,280
you know kind of these insights that

2092
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:53,280
we've talked about

2093
01:15:58,870 --> 01:15:55,520
you know what of those

2094
01:16:00,470 --> 01:15:58,880
might we map on to the phenomenon itself

2095
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:00,480
you know so what

2096
01:16:08,390 --> 01:16:05,350
i think of

2097
01:16:09,590 --> 01:16:08,400
the notion of looking back at my past

2098
01:16:11,590 --> 01:16:09,600
selves

2099
01:16:14,229 --> 01:16:11,600
you know sort of

2100
01:16:16,149 --> 01:16:14,239
decades ago or years ago

2101
01:16:17,830 --> 01:16:16,159
you know there's a different nathan kind

2102
01:16:19,270 --> 01:16:17,840
of at each slice of

2103
01:16:22,790 --> 01:16:19,280
of time

2104
01:16:25,910 --> 01:16:22,800
and and observing those different uh you

2105
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:25,920
know sort of instantiations of myself

2106
01:16:30,229 --> 01:16:28,560
you know i can see represented there

2107
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:30,239
these different you know kind of

2108
01:16:35,189 --> 01:16:32,080
viewpoints these different

2109
01:16:35,990 --> 01:16:35,199
uh camps more so than others

2110
01:16:37,990 --> 01:16:36,000
and

2111
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:38,000
that awareness that

2112
01:16:41,669 --> 01:16:39,520
that

2113
01:16:43,910 --> 01:16:41,679
ability to

2114
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:43,920
observe you know kind of the the

2115
01:16:48,950 --> 01:16:46,719
journeys that i myself have gone through

2116
01:16:52,310 --> 01:16:48,960
you know i wonder if the phenomenon

2117
01:16:54,709 --> 01:16:52,320
itself and by that i guess i want to say

2118
01:16:56,229 --> 01:16:54,719
you know any other intelligence that may

2119
01:16:58,709 --> 01:16:56,239
be out there

2120
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:58,719
you know it too must also have gone

2121
01:17:02,390 --> 01:17:00,960
through these kinds of periods

2122
01:17:05,430 --> 01:17:02,400
that it too

2123
01:17:07,750 --> 01:17:05,440
you know may have some kind of awareness

2124
01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:07,760
of of these levels

2125
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:09,199
of these ways

2126
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:11,199
of relating to

2127
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:14,159
reality and because of that

2128
01:17:18,229 --> 01:17:15,840
uh you know kind of what i would guess

2129
01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:18,239
call wisdom perhaps you know that that

2130
01:17:22,950 --> 01:17:20,320
that that is part of

2131
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:22,960
uh is going to play a part in the way in

2132
01:17:28,550 --> 01:17:25,600
which it relates with us

2133
01:17:30,310 --> 01:17:28,560
uh just as we relate with it

2134
01:17:32,390 --> 01:17:30,320
and i wondered to what degree you've

2135
01:17:35,430 --> 01:17:32,400
considered you know kind of that you

2136
01:17:38,630 --> 01:17:35,440
know because we often kind of talk about

2137
01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:38,640
the phenomenon i think in a pretty flat

2138
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:39,760
way

2139
01:17:43,830 --> 01:17:42,000
you know it's it's it's um

2140
01:17:45,430 --> 01:17:43,840
it seems like there you know when you

2141
01:17:48,070 --> 01:17:45,440
read about stories about alien

2142
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:48,080
encounters or whatever they seem

2143
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:49,920
in a pretty uh

2144
01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:52,080
monolithic or you know

2145
01:17:55,510 --> 01:17:54,000
you know kind of two-dimensional almost

2146
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:55,520
in their quality

2147
01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:56,800
um

2148
01:18:00,630 --> 01:17:58,800
we we also sort of think that when they

2149
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:00,640
show up it's like

2150
01:18:04,470 --> 01:18:02,960
here's information and we're done you

2151
01:18:05,510 --> 01:18:04,480
know like what we've got there where

2152
01:18:09,110 --> 01:18:05,520
it's over

2153
01:18:11,669 --> 01:18:09,120
um and so not recognizing the sort of

2154
01:18:14,229 --> 01:18:11,679
very real dynamic process that is at

2155
01:18:15,910 --> 01:18:14,239
play both now and

2156
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:15,920
whenever that sort of

2157
01:18:22,070 --> 01:18:19,760
new sort of change moment occurs

2158
01:18:24,310 --> 01:18:22,080
yeah absolutely and i think that a lot

2159
01:18:26,550 --> 01:18:24,320
of people have a hard time

2160
01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:26,560
coming to grips with and acknowledging

2161
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:27,920
the amount of

2162
01:18:32,630 --> 01:18:29,760
developmental differences and different

2163
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:32,640
world views that coexist in our world in

2164
01:18:37,270 --> 01:18:35,440
our civilization at the same time

2165
01:18:39,990 --> 01:18:37,280
um and like you said we have this

2166
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:40,000
tendency which i also

2167
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:42,080
you know it puts up a red flag for me

2168
01:18:48,470 --> 01:18:45,920
when i see these monolithic um

2169
01:18:51,669 --> 01:18:48,480
representations of the phenomenon or

2170
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:51,679
different groups within the phenomenon

2171
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:52,880
in the same way that we're seeing right

2172
01:18:56,550 --> 01:18:54,800
now that

2173
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:56,560
there's a certain center of gravity as a

2174
01:18:59,590 --> 01:18:58,239
is a as an expression that's used in

2175
01:19:01,510 --> 01:18:59,600
integral circles

2176
01:19:04,070 --> 01:19:01,520
that say you have for instance in

2177
01:19:05,910 --> 01:19:04,080
american culture you have three main

2178
01:19:08,229 --> 01:19:05,920
developmental levels coexisting right

2179
01:19:09,510 --> 01:19:08,239
now that see the world very differently

2180
01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:09,520
and that's partly what leads to the

2181
01:19:13,990 --> 01:19:10,960
culture wars we're going through right

2182
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:14,000
now and the divide and the populace

2183
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:15,520
but the center of gravity is kind of

2184
01:19:19,350 --> 01:19:17,440
like the average of all of those right

2185
01:19:21,270 --> 01:19:19,360
so you can find an average out of the

2186
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:21,280
entire populace

2187
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:23,040
but in the same way

2188
01:19:27,270 --> 01:19:25,280
while we may when we encounter these

2189
01:19:28,550 --> 01:19:27,280
others may find our center of gravity

2190
01:19:30,950 --> 01:19:28,560
they too

2191
01:19:33,830 --> 01:19:30,960
might very well likely have a range just

2192
01:19:35,510 --> 01:19:33,840
like we do and

2193
01:19:37,510 --> 01:19:35,520
one of the things that i've become

2194
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:37,520
pretty convinced of is that this never

2195
01:19:42,310 --> 01:19:40,159
becomes you never arrive at a static

2196
01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:42,320
point right that

2197
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,400
new perspectives new world views greater

2198
01:19:49,510 --> 01:19:45,920
conceptions of what's available in

2199
01:19:50,630 --> 01:19:49,520
reality that's an emergent process so

2200
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:50,640
even though

2201
01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:52,640
so for instance say with spiral dynamics

2202
01:19:56,229 --> 01:19:54,480
and integral theory we can sort of

2203
01:19:57,669 --> 01:19:56,239
picture what's coming two three levels

2204
01:19:59,590 --> 01:19:57,679
ahead of us right

2205
01:20:01,030 --> 01:19:59,600
after that we can't see any further that

2206
01:20:03,350 --> 01:20:01,040
doesn't mean there isn't something that

2207
01:20:05,270 --> 01:20:03,360
will come there will be there always has

2208
01:20:07,110 --> 01:20:05,280
been it's just that we don't have the

2209
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:07,120
capacity yet to see it

2210
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:09,360
so the point there is that even these

2211
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:11,040
even if some of these others are highly

2212
01:20:15,750 --> 01:20:13,679
advanced they too will still be moving

2213
01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:15,760
along a spectrum that never ends it's

2214
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:17,520
part of the from my point of view it's

2215
01:20:21,430 --> 01:20:19,280
sort of like the uh

2216
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:21,440
the teleological principle of

2217
01:20:27,350 --> 01:20:24,880
the cosmos that's moving it towards uh

2218
01:20:29,830 --> 01:20:27,360
some direction there's a trajectory

2219
01:20:33,510 --> 01:20:29,840
involved there and they are subject to

2220
01:20:37,270 --> 01:20:33,520
that just like we are so i like you um

2221
01:20:38,350 --> 01:20:37,280
i'm hesitant to accept those those views

2222
01:20:39,430 --> 01:20:38,360
and um

2223
01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:39,440
[Music]

2224
01:20:43,350 --> 01:20:41,040
i think that that's where you and i for

2225
01:20:45,189 --> 01:20:43,360
instance in that case are trying to

2226
01:20:47,510 --> 01:20:45,199
apply some healthy skepticism right

2227
01:20:49,110 --> 01:20:47,520
we're saying

2228
01:20:52,550 --> 01:20:49,120
we don't want to disbelieve you when you

2229
01:20:54,470 --> 01:20:52,560
say these certain others are

2230
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:54,480
love and light and nothing but and these

2231
01:20:59,110 --> 01:20:56,719
ones over here are deceptive and dark

2232
01:21:00,470 --> 01:20:59,120
and and eat our negative energy for

2233
01:21:03,030 --> 01:21:00,480
lunch and

2234
01:21:04,709 --> 01:21:03,040
nothing makes them happier

2235
01:21:06,709 --> 01:21:04,719
the reason why we're skeptical about

2236
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:06,719
that is based on life experience and

2237
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:09,840
based on our own experience of sentient

2238
01:21:14,709 --> 01:21:12,239
beings that we've been around our entire

2239
01:21:15,590 --> 01:21:14,719
lives that if it's not the case there

2240
01:21:17,189 --> 01:21:15,600
then

2241
01:21:19,030 --> 01:21:17,199
why suddenly is it different with these

2242
01:21:22,149 --> 01:21:19,040
others and and to what degree are we

2243
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:22,159
projecting our desire for something

2244
01:21:27,590 --> 01:21:24,960
static and something clean and clear

2245
01:21:29,990 --> 01:21:27,600
more so than it really being that way

2246
01:21:31,990 --> 01:21:30,000
i think it is that's a perfect example

2247
01:21:34,149 --> 01:21:32,000
where healthy skepticism is completely

2248
01:21:36,629 --> 01:21:34,159
uh valid

2249
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:36,639
yeah and the phrase that comes to mind

2250
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:39,120
is you know we've been asking

2251
01:21:42,870 --> 01:21:41,120
you know are

2252
01:21:44,470 --> 01:21:42,880
are we ready for them

2253
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:44,480
you know are we ready

2254
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,719
you know is is the earth ready for for

2255
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:48,480
this knowledge you know it's very us

2256
01:21:51,910 --> 01:21:49,760
centered are we

2257
01:21:56,070 --> 01:21:51,920
gonna be okay with this and maybe the

2258
01:21:57,030 --> 01:21:56,080
other question is are they ready for us

2259
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:57,040
you know

2260
01:21:59,430 --> 01:21:58,639
are they ready

2261
01:22:06,790 --> 01:21:59,440
for

2262
01:22:09,910 --> 01:22:06,800
part of their paradigm than we are now

2263
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:09,920
uh you know our our greater awareness of

2264
01:22:15,910 --> 01:22:12,960
their existence will change that

2265
01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:15,920
dynamic it will change them as much as

2266
01:22:19,669 --> 01:22:17,760
it changes us

2267
01:22:23,030 --> 01:22:19,679
and so you know

2268
01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:23,040
in in time there is a perhaps a

2269
01:22:28,790 --> 01:22:25,360
a method to the madness there

2270
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:28,800
uh that that it requires

2271
01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:30,800
uh you know some sort of um

2272
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:33,120
appropriateness

2273
01:22:37,270 --> 01:22:35,040
you know that that

2274
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:37,280
that we both need we are both we are

2275
01:22:40,390 --> 01:22:39,360
both being prepared if you think of it

2276
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:40,400
that way

2277
01:22:45,590 --> 01:22:44,800
uh for this new way of of of relating

2278
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:45,600
with

2279
01:22:52,950 --> 01:22:48,480
that's

2280
01:22:54,870 --> 01:22:52,960
great point and i think it's

2281
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:54,880
not nearly considered enough you know

2282
01:22:59,030 --> 01:22:56,960
and when you look at the

2283
01:23:01,030 --> 01:22:59,040
the arguable uptick that we saw after

2284
01:23:02,149 --> 01:23:01,040
the detonation of the first atomic bombs

2285
01:23:04,390 --> 01:23:02,159
for instance

2286
01:23:06,310 --> 01:23:04,400
they may have reluctantly decided they

2287
01:23:08,070 --> 01:23:06,320
better engage with us because we have

2288
01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:08,080
now reached a certain

2289
01:23:12,709 --> 01:23:10,719
technological level uh which is kind of

2290
01:23:15,430 --> 01:23:12,719
not congruent with our consciousness

2291
01:23:18,070 --> 01:23:15,440
level where we suddenly become

2292
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:18,080
rather than this tribal society you know

2293
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:19,760
beating each other with clubs we now can

2294
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:22,320
do real damage maybe not even to just to

2295
01:23:27,189 --> 01:23:24,480
the earth environment maybe into into

2296
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:27,199
shadow biomes that may exist or even

2297
01:23:32,709 --> 01:23:30,159
alter alternate dimensions right and so

2298
01:23:35,430 --> 01:23:32,719
just like we think about like a

2299
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:35,440
a nation like china going from

2300
01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:37,679
a pre-industrial very poor country to

2301
01:23:42,229 --> 01:23:39,679
suddenly in a few decades time

2302
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:42,239
becoming a world superpower basically

2303
01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:44,800
we we have to engage with them right we

2304
01:23:49,270 --> 01:23:47,199
don't have any other choice so it is

2305
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:49,280
very interesting as you sort of suggest

2306
01:23:53,830 --> 01:23:51,520
there to put yourself in their shoes

2307
01:23:55,830 --> 01:23:53,840
that we may be that to them that they've

2308
01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,840
already been in this cosmic neighborhood

2309
01:23:59,590 --> 01:23:57,199
and we've kind of been an afterthought

2310
01:24:01,350 --> 01:23:59,600
up until now but now because of our

2311
01:24:03,189 --> 01:24:01,360
progress and again i would suggest you

2312
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,199
maybe can argue that this is the case

2313
01:24:07,910 --> 01:24:05,199
based on how there has been an uptick

2314
01:24:10,390 --> 01:24:07,920
since the dawn of the atomic age

2315
01:24:13,110 --> 01:24:10,400
that that they now have to wrestle with

2316
01:24:14,550 --> 01:24:13,120
okay they've reached this point

2317
01:24:16,950 --> 01:24:14,560
and maybe even they've seen other

2318
01:24:18,790 --> 01:24:16,960
civilizations like us in the past blow

2319
01:24:21,030 --> 01:24:18,800
themselves up not make it through

2320
01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:21,040
because of that incongruence between

2321
01:24:25,030 --> 01:24:23,040
level of consciousness and level of

2322
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:25,040
technological capacity to destroy

2323
01:24:28,470 --> 01:24:26,400
yourselves

2324
01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:28,480
so that is an interesting

2325
01:24:31,669 --> 01:24:30,400
discussion and as we've talked about

2326
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:31,679
before

2327
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:33,840
we do need to remember that this is not

2328
01:24:37,110 --> 01:24:36,239
going to be one aha moment even if we do

2329
01:24:39,350 --> 01:24:37,120
get

2330
01:24:42,149 --> 01:24:39,360
public recognition that they're here

2331
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:42,159
that's day one of an acknowledged

2332
01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:44,480
relationship right and so you think

2333
01:24:48,870 --> 01:24:46,960
about the complexity of international

2334
01:24:51,270 --> 01:24:48,880
dynamics right geopolitical dynamics

2335
01:24:52,070 --> 01:24:51,280
when nations have no choice but to begin

2336
01:24:54,149 --> 01:24:52,080
to

2337
01:24:55,510 --> 01:24:54,159
uh dialogue with each other even if they

2338
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:55,520
have very different world views very

2339
01:25:01,110 --> 01:24:59,120
different cultural fabric now imagine

2340
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:01,120
completely different species right maybe

2341
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:03,280
even a different way of experiencing

2342
01:25:09,990 --> 01:25:06,719
reality the space-time fabric itself

2343
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:10,000
that is day one at that point and that's

2344
01:25:15,510 --> 01:25:12,960
why i think we should not be looking to

2345
01:25:17,830 --> 01:25:15,520
one glorious day where suddenly all our

2346
01:25:19,590 --> 01:25:17,840
dreams are realized that no matter what

2347
01:25:22,470 --> 01:25:19,600
happens this is going to be an ongoing

2348
01:25:25,590 --> 01:25:22,480
process for the rest of our lives

2349
01:25:28,629 --> 01:25:25,600
definitely and and two maybe we need to

2350
01:25:33,030 --> 01:25:32,310
see that that intelligence as we have i

2351
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:33,040
think

2352
01:25:36,229 --> 01:25:34,239
often

2353
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:36,239
uh presumed

2354
01:25:41,350 --> 01:25:39,199
is not um

2355
01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:41,360
you know kind of like a like a grand

2356
01:25:45,189 --> 01:25:43,600
computer you know that that because they

2357
01:25:47,030 --> 01:25:45,199
are more intelligent they are they're

2358
01:25:49,669 --> 01:25:47,040
functioning as if they are

2359
01:25:51,669 --> 01:25:49,679
a computer that has perfect knowledge of

2360
01:25:54,310 --> 01:25:51,679
some kind you know that maybe the

2361
01:25:56,550 --> 01:25:54,320
hallmark of intelligence is these

2362
01:25:59,030 --> 01:25:56,560
different ways of

2363
01:26:00,629 --> 01:25:59,040
uh relating to

2364
01:26:03,110 --> 01:26:00,639
uh experience

2365
01:26:04,470 --> 01:26:03,120
and reality such that they themselves

2366
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:04,480
will go through

2367
01:26:09,270 --> 01:26:06,960
and and very much have periods of belief

2368
01:26:10,229 --> 01:26:09,280
and skepticism and denial

2369
01:26:14,790 --> 01:26:10,239
about

2370
01:26:16,790 --> 01:26:14,800
us not be too quick

2371
01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:16,800
to uh ascribe

2372
01:26:20,709 --> 01:26:18,080
to to them

2373
01:26:22,390 --> 01:26:20,719
you know a a character trait or quality

2374
01:26:23,350 --> 01:26:22,400
that is uh

2375
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:23,360
you know

2376
01:26:28,470 --> 01:26:26,239
so cold and calculating as a machine and

2377
01:26:30,790 --> 01:26:28,480
i feel like that we often do that

2378
01:26:31,990 --> 01:26:30,800
you know because of the correlates that

2379
01:26:34,390 --> 01:26:32,000
we have

2380
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:34,400
for uh you know intelligence or

2381
01:26:39,189 --> 01:26:36,560
processing power and it's all through

2382
01:26:40,470 --> 01:26:39,199
computation and we really kind of take

2383
01:26:42,550 --> 01:26:40,480
that and we just

2384
01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:42,560
we we apply that pretty i think

2385
01:26:47,510 --> 01:26:45,760
flippantly uh to uh aspects of the

2386
01:26:50,229 --> 01:26:47,520
phenomenon as if they're going to be

2387
01:26:52,310 --> 01:26:50,239
these you know sophisticated

2388
01:26:55,669 --> 01:26:52,320
computers

2389
01:26:57,750 --> 01:26:55,679
they very much very well may have

2390
01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:57,760
many of the same qualities that we do

2391
01:27:02,629 --> 01:27:00,239
and and maybe that will be something

2392
01:27:04,790 --> 01:27:02,639
well worth celebrating

2393
01:27:06,629 --> 01:27:04,800
right and and we should also distinguish

2394
01:27:09,189 --> 01:27:06,639
between you know technological

2395
01:27:10,709 --> 01:27:09,199
sophistication and actual developmental

2396
01:27:12,390 --> 01:27:10,719
level right and

2397
01:27:14,470 --> 01:27:12,400
one does not necessarily imply the other

2398
01:27:15,270 --> 01:27:14,480
and i see people making that mistake too

2399
01:27:17,430 --> 01:27:15,280
of

2400
01:27:19,669 --> 01:27:17,440
assuming well since they can run circles

2401
01:27:20,950 --> 01:27:19,679
around us in terms of our craft versus

2402
01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:20,960
their craft

2403
01:27:25,270 --> 01:27:23,440
they must be our moral superiors to the

2404
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:25,280
nth degree and so please come and save

2405
01:27:28,149 --> 01:27:26,400
us you know

2406
01:27:28,950 --> 01:27:28,159
we describe a sort of savior role to

2407
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:28,960
them

2408
01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:30,480
which again based on what we've talked

2409
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:32,480
about today

2410
01:27:37,590 --> 01:27:35,440
even at a relatively advanced place in a

2411
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:37,600
societal's progress when you compare us

2412
01:27:40,550 --> 01:27:39,120
to say the middle ages or something or

2413
01:27:42,870 --> 01:27:40,560
primitive man

2414
01:27:44,070 --> 01:27:42,880
there still is a

2415
01:27:45,110 --> 01:27:44,080
sometimes

2416
01:27:47,510 --> 01:27:45,120
really

2417
01:27:51,270 --> 01:27:47,520
kind of nasty mix of different

2418
01:27:53,030 --> 01:27:51,280
developmental levels it's always messy

2419
01:27:55,830 --> 01:27:53,040
it does become more peaceful over time

2420
01:27:57,990 --> 01:27:55,840
in general but there's still that

2421
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:58,000
combustible mix that's that's actually

2422
01:28:01,590 --> 01:28:00,320
part that's built into evolution that

2423
01:28:04,229 --> 01:28:01,600
that's actually what helps move it

2424
01:28:06,709 --> 01:28:04,239
forward so i agree that we we should

2425
01:28:08,790 --> 01:28:06,719
uh look to that for them

2426
01:28:10,470 --> 01:28:08,800
from them that they would also be going

2427
01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:10,480
through that and again

2428
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:11,840
i think part of the challenge here is

2429
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:13,199
because

2430
01:28:16,149 --> 01:28:14,880
the mainstream doesn't acknowledge this

2431
01:28:18,310 --> 01:28:16,159
phenomenon

2432
01:28:19,990 --> 01:28:18,320
and because the data is sometimes

2433
01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:20,000
ambiguous

2434
01:28:23,750 --> 01:28:22,400
i mean how many different narratives

2435
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:23,760
have we heard around the graves i mean

2436
01:28:29,830 --> 01:28:26,000
there's so many from their

2437
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:29,840
total evil to their you know angelic

2438
01:28:35,910 --> 01:28:32,880
to their something in between right

2439
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:35,920
um that sometimes in that

2440
01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:38,480
void it's very easy for us to ascribe

2441
01:28:42,149 --> 01:28:40,320
whatever qualities we want because we

2442
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:42,159
don't have to prove it because the

2443
01:28:46,149 --> 01:28:43,520
mainstream is not paying attention

2444
01:28:47,350 --> 01:28:46,159
anyway this is again where the the

2445
01:28:49,590 --> 01:28:47,360
skeptics

2446
01:28:51,669 --> 01:28:49,600
and whatnot can help us and how we can

2447
01:28:52,629 --> 01:28:51,679
adopt a skeptical attitude in terms of

2448
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:52,639
saying

2449
01:28:56,629 --> 01:28:54,560
um you know let's not jump to

2450
01:28:58,950 --> 01:28:56,639
conclusions let's not make the mistake

2451
01:29:02,070 --> 01:28:58,960
stake of ascribing qualities to them

2452
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,080
that is not evidenced in the data and

2453
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:03,840
what i come away

2454
01:29:08,950 --> 01:29:06,560
with when i look at the um

2455
01:29:10,950 --> 01:29:08,960
the ambiguity around the ultimate nature

2456
01:29:12,390 --> 01:29:10,960
of these and and what their purpose is

2457
01:29:15,350 --> 01:29:12,400
their agenda

2458
01:29:17,510 --> 01:29:15,360
i i take a position like a conservative

2459
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:17,520
reserve is kind of what i come away i

2460
01:29:21,910 --> 01:29:18,480
i'm not

2461
01:29:24,310 --> 01:29:21,920
ready to make a strong commitment

2462
01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:24,320
either way because i i first want to

2463
01:29:26,950 --> 01:29:25,840
reconcile why do we have so many

2464
01:29:28,950 --> 01:29:26,960
different narratives here there's

2465
01:29:31,990 --> 01:29:28,960
different ways that could be explained

2466
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:32,000
but i'm okay not knowing exactly and

2467
01:29:35,990 --> 01:29:33,600
that that's that's something we want to

2468
01:29:38,310 --> 01:29:36,000
encourage people too is that

2469
01:29:40,790 --> 01:29:38,320
it's fine to have strong belief based on

2470
01:29:42,870 --> 01:29:40,800
evidence but it's also completely

2471
01:29:44,550 --> 01:29:42,880
legitimate and justifiable and even

2472
01:29:46,070 --> 01:29:44,560
appropriate to say

2473
01:29:47,590 --> 01:29:46,080
right now there's some ambiguity around

2474
01:29:49,350 --> 01:29:47,600
that data we know something's going on

2475
01:29:52,470 --> 01:29:49,360
but we can't maybe we don't have the

2476
01:29:55,270 --> 01:29:52,480
capacity or whatever but let's hold off

2477
01:29:57,990 --> 01:29:55,280
on trying to put a bow on that so to

2478
01:30:03,990 --> 01:30:02,149
absolutely we we hope that um

2479
01:30:05,669 --> 01:30:04,000
our listeners have you know kind of

2480
01:30:06,390 --> 01:30:05,679
gained something from this conversation

2481
01:30:11,189 --> 01:30:06,400
that

2482
01:30:13,669 --> 01:30:11,199
you know some of the ways in which you

2483
01:30:16,149 --> 01:30:13,679
approach this topic i know it it's

2484
01:30:18,550 --> 01:30:16,159
absolutely helped me uh to be able to

2485
01:30:21,350 --> 01:30:18,560
talk about these different ways of

2486
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:21,360
approaching information and and uh

2487
01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:23,920
you know and the truth that i understand

2488
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:25,120
um

2489
01:30:28,149 --> 01:30:27,120
you know and i think it again these are

2490
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:28,159
tools

2491
01:30:32,310 --> 01:30:30,560
uh these are frameworks that we

2492
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:32,320
are trying to

2493
01:30:39,030 --> 01:30:35,760
work through ourselves uh

2494
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:39,040
for hopefully in the service of um

2495
01:30:43,110 --> 01:30:40,560
better preparing us

2496
01:30:45,350 --> 01:30:43,120
you know for whatever may come uh that

2497
01:30:48,950 --> 01:30:45,360
um we will be in a position

2498
01:30:51,350 --> 01:30:48,960
to uh you know deal with any kind of new

2499
01:30:52,470 --> 01:30:51,360
truth new revelation in a way that is

2500
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:52,480
healthy

2501
01:30:57,430 --> 01:30:55,199
uh that is um

2502
01:30:59,990 --> 01:30:57,440
wise if you will

2503
01:31:01,669 --> 01:31:00,000
and uh and to that end i would say you

2504
01:31:03,830 --> 01:31:01,679
know this this happens through

2505
01:31:07,270 --> 01:31:03,840
conversation you know this this doesn't

2506
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:07,280
happen uh in a vacuum you know that um

2507
01:31:13,189 --> 01:31:10,080
you know that that just as our dialogues

2508
01:31:15,110 --> 01:31:13,199
you know absolutely add value to uh my

2509
01:31:17,669 --> 01:31:15,120
way of understanding that this topic i'm

2510
01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:17,679
hoping that uh conversations with our

2511
01:31:22,470 --> 01:31:19,920
listeners uh will

2512
01:31:24,470 --> 01:31:22,480
do the same you know we we

2513
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:24,480
very much look forward to reading uh the

2514
01:31:28,950 --> 01:31:26,800
feedback that we receive

2515
01:31:30,629 --> 01:31:28,960
we are planning uh to eventually

2516
01:31:33,430 --> 01:31:30,639
incorporate a whole

2517
01:31:36,149 --> 01:31:33,440
show uh sort of wrapped around specific

2518
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:36,159
listener questions and topics um so if

2519
01:31:39,350 --> 01:31:37,520
you do have something that you would

2520
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:39,360
really like us to tackle

2521
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:42,000
uh in depth uh we welcome that

2522
01:31:46,470 --> 01:31:44,320
suggestion and you know you can do that

2523
01:31:49,189 --> 01:31:46,480
a number of ways

2524
01:31:50,390 --> 01:31:49,199
you can leave us a comment on

2525
01:31:52,310 --> 01:31:50,400
youtube

2526
01:31:53,830 --> 01:31:52,320
where you can find

2527
01:31:57,030 --> 01:31:53,840
these episodes

2528
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:57,040
on the exo academia youtube channel

2529
01:32:01,669 --> 01:31:59,520
you can send us messages on twitter uh

2530
01:32:04,470 --> 01:32:01,679
i'm at a waif soul

2531
01:32:06,790 --> 01:32:04,480
xo is it exo academian

2532
01:32:09,189 --> 01:32:06,800
uh and then similarly you can interact

2533
01:32:10,870 --> 01:32:09,199
and you should interact with exo's

2534
01:32:12,550 --> 01:32:10,880
excellent podcast the point of

2535
01:32:14,550 --> 01:32:12,560
convergence

2536
01:32:15,990 --> 01:32:14,560
and then my show as well calling all

2537
01:32:17,590 --> 01:32:16,000
beings so there's a lot of different

2538
01:32:19,590 --> 01:32:17,600
ways you can find us

2539
01:32:21,910 --> 01:32:19,600
uh out there in

2540
01:32:23,669 --> 01:32:21,920
you know sort of virtual space and we

2541
01:32:25,510 --> 01:32:23,679
welcome those interactions because they

2542
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:25,520
really do inform

2543
01:32:29,350 --> 01:32:27,520
our own positions and help us

2544
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:29,360
when we kind of plan out where we want

2545
01:32:31,669 --> 01:32:30,239
to go

2546
01:32:36,229 --> 01:32:31,679
with this show

2547
01:32:40,550 --> 01:32:38,870
and so with that i think we will close

2548
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:40,560
episode five thank you so much for

2549
01:32:45,030 --> 01:32:42,480
joining us

2550
01:32:48,070 --> 01:32:45,040
may the quality of our questions shaped

2551
01:32:50,390 --> 01:32:48,080
by a desire for understanding enhance

2552
01:32:52,629 --> 01:32:50,400
our journey of discovery

2553
01:32:55,270 --> 01:32:52,639
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2554
01:32:58,709 --> 01:32:55,280
of our consciousness reminding us that

2555
01:33:00,070 --> 01:32:58,719
new discoveries beget new horizons

2556
01:33:02,149 --> 01:33:00,080
as always

2557
01:33:03,669 --> 01:33:02,159
adventure awaits

2558
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:03,679
we'll see you next time